Discuss Paper faced mosaics - pre grouting method in the Tiling Forum at TilersForums; Have a small paper faced mosaic job to do. Never done these before. Was doing a little research on internet and found some very useful info that I would like ...
Have a small paper faced mosaic job to do. Never done these before. Was doing a little research on internet and found some very useful info that I would like to share !
Any of you guys used this method before ?
"What is Pre-Grouting?
This process is an essential part of the indirect method. Grout is applied with any of the grouting tools to the back of the paper faced mosaic. The backs of the tile are sponged clean, leaving the grout to fill in the joints. This stops the adhesive from coming up between the joints and improves the adhesion of the mosaic to the backing material. It also begins to dampen the water-soluble glue which makes the paper easier to remove, but also makes the paper easer to remove, but be careful, it also makes the mosaic more vulnerable at this stage. It will hold together for at least 10-15 minutes but it is important not to leave it to long or the tiles will start to drop off when you turn the piece over into the adhesive bed. When the paper has been peeled away the excess grout on the face of the mosaic must be sponged off while it is still wet or it will harden into an uneven surface." http://www.mymosaicworkshop.co.uk/so...nique/faq.html
I've only used paper faced mosaics as borders and getting them flush has always been a nightmare. I can see how this method would be useful but grouting and sticking at the same time could be interesting?
Formerly known as Captain Slow
------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Life isn't guaranteed, but at least my work is
Watched another tiler fix paper faced mosaics before. Did not use this method. He spent a full day peeling off paper and scraping addy out of grout lines.
So yes this does seem the best way. Will give it a go
Yes, it is essential when working indirectly with paper backing. You forgot to mention that afterwards the mosaic has to be grouted again from the front as usual. I don't like it much at all though, it's a messy affair as you do lose some control and prefer to work directly on a very tightly woven netting, which stops the adhesive pushing through and to enables it to grab hold of the netting intead, which makes it possible to work directly, and to grout as normal, as well as to work with different surface textures and thicknesses, AND you can see what you're doing at every stage and change things if necessary. The indirect method ans the picture lays face down onthe table so to speak is brilliant though if you need a completely flat surface finish, which I find oddly off putting, quite like a bit of life and character in the final look of it.
I was not offering my own opinion as I have had no direct experience of fixing these tiles. Just something I found on the internet. Thanks for your opinion.
Guessed you would reply
I was not offering my own opinion as I have had no direct experience of fixing these tiles. Just something I found on the internet. Thanks for your opinion.
Guessed you would reply
Good thing you posted the thread, too, as I think there are lots of people at a complete loss as what to do with small tiles, and the very word mosaic puts many off. There are just really little tiles, and a grout flout more than anyhing, or a carpeted board plus mallet helps to get it all nice and level. The biggest problem usually with the finish is that there are so many minute areas to clean up and sort that it;s easy to overlook something, especially if the eyesight isnt; up to scratch, my 1.0 reading glasses I have just started to wear really show up things I may otherwise have overlooked.
When fixing mosaics on walls, I always start at the top and work down, have been taught that this is easiest and best way to do it. Also I always stagger my sheets on each row !
Is that the way you do it ?
AND....Dave's point brings something up about mosaic artists - they are not usually trained as tilers and don't know about different trowel sizes. That's why I did the tiling course, to learn about such things, tiling tools, different adhesivesfor different surfaces etc, and I'm really glad I did.
I geddit !
Making a mosaic table top ain't the same as tiling a full bathroom in the stuff ! Although what you do is an art form and very creative
Started a marble mosaic job today, 10 sq m of 45mm x 45mm, walls and floor. Bloomin mosaics have not been webbed properly, were stuck to that rigid plastic backing, of the 10 sq m, had to take out 4 sq m to be returned to shop and exchanged. Many twisted, and spacing all over the place. Customer did not want to pay my labour for cutting out bad ones and re-adjusting ( quite rightly so )
When fixing mosaics on walls, I always start at the top and work down, have been taught that this is easiest and best way to do it. Also I always stagger my sheets on each row !
Is that the way you do it ?
It's the way I do it Nick, I hang 'em down, squeegee 'em with my grout float on the way down, (whilst pinning with 2" ovals)
Which trowel would you use for these then? I am using a 3mm mosaic trowel (adhesive) for the glass mosaics I'm putting on, these are joined by a paper web at the back as opposed by a sheet at the front.
I would haver thought that I would need to use a similar trowel to limit the adhesive coming through behind the grout. Am I right?
This paper lattice too has a limited life when it comes into contact with water or adhesive.
I worked up on my bathroom. Next time, as nick and doug say, I'll work down. I did find that the bal mosaic fix held them very well to the wall. I didn't get any slipping once all the tiles were pushed home.
As far as vertical slippage goes, I always use a stiff mix of Mapei Adisilex P9 OR P10 ( WHITE ) or Ultramastic III (Super white )
Slippage virtually non existent.
Leather face will be interested to see how you get on with this pre grout method i suggest you try a couple first leave untill you can get the paper of and see how it goes dont do a large area and try it you might come unstuck these things are a nightmare at the best of times without making it even harder. The best way to work these tiles is with 3mm trowel and it helps if the background is perfectly flat, it sounds daunting cleaning tiles of when addy has gone of a bit but if they are on a nice tight bed not much comes through and easy to clean the scabby bits of with a 3 inch nail and a stiff brush.Lucius
Anyone tried that liquid additive that mixes with grout to form an adhesive?. Fix and grout at the same time seems like it might be a lot faster. Apart from borders etc, mosaics are not that popular in my area, so I've never had reason to try it out.
Apparently Webber do a waterproof addy for mosaic work on swimming pools, it is a tile and grout never used it dont know but must be worth loking at.
Lucius
The pre-grout method is good for large area work, typically pools, but I found that you lose too much control of the sheet. In any case as mosaic girl pointed out it still has to have a full grout pass and clean anyway to finish it correctly. The risk for less experienced fixers is taking the paper off too soon and loosing pieces and disturbing the work generally.
Many other points to quality mosaic installation but the requirement to have a high quality background is the start - think of it as hanging wallpaper in that respect; there can be no dubbing out of the material in the fix process - it all goes west then!
The mosaic companies are turning over to mesh backing more and more, however for other reasons these are not so desirable in some respects of fixing mosaic. The paper carrying system sufficed for many years. Re setting sheets - they dont need pinnning as they are too light. The adhesive you're using must be too wet or too thickly applied if you find they need holding up.
Well done mosaic girl for doing a course to understand the install issues for your work - to do yourself or advise others or clients. It is a part that lets down some buyers of commisioned work in that it is the install part that goes wrong too often.
Compared to mesh backed paper faced mosaics are much more suitable for fixing onto curved edges/corners or awkward shapes as the paper has more give even when the sheets are cut into strips. It can done with mesh backed mosaics but takes longer.
Yes - exactly Miss Tiler...plus finer tuning of the material cane be done in various situations as well. Having to cut through the tiles into a mesh is more disruptive and time comsuming per cut made than on paper faced.
Interesting topic, I have recently finished a job using mosaics with plastic sticker covering the front of the whole sheet, it was only a splashback, I found it hard to see the grout lines,however i prefer to use mesh backed mosaics !
Interesting topic, I have recently finished a job using mosaics with plastic sticker covering the front of the whole sheet, it was only a splashback, I found it hard to see the grout lines,however i prefer to use mesh backed mosaics !
I know mate, did a job recently with them where they had to be fixed to a couple of pillars ( basically plastic soil pipe ) Because they had plastic on front, fixing them to a curve forced all the joints together, so I had to cut into individual strips prior to fixing, took ages. Also took ages to peel the plastic off afterwards
If you are completely comfortable with the paper fronted mosaics ie. all the timing issues with removing the paper you should give it a try as it makes it even easier to install them.Less slippage, quicker paper removal and if you are confident in your helpers ability to grout them at the right time a lot quicker.You will never go back.Also I always start at the bottom as I can't think of any reason not to and I just prefer it that way.One other thing is that I would check the sheets to see if the tiles are aligned well and if they aren't I wouldn't grout from the back.You can still adjust them after the paper comes off but you are doing more touch up on the grout and having more things to think about as everything is going off.Maybe get use to grouting from the back when you are on a job were the sheets are good before doing it on a job were the sheets are bad and need a lot of adjustment.Hopefully the sheets are good on this job because you will love it.Good luck Leatherface.
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Paper faced mosaics - pre grouting method
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Originally Posted by Dave 
Good thing you posted the thread, too, as I think there are lots of people at a complete loss as what to do with small tiles, and the very word mosaic puts many off. There are just really little tiles, and a grout flout more than anyhing, or a carpeted board plus mallet helps to get it all nice and level. The biggest problem usually with the finish is that there are so many minute areas to clean up and sort that it;s easy to overlook something, especially if the eyesight isnt; up to scratch, my 1.0 reading glasses I have just started to wear really show up things I may otherwise have overlooked.
you tell me how to get an oval into this
me?
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