Help!: Room setting out...

[tileboy]

Hi guys and girls...

I'd appreciate some input from y'all about the following room and how to set out. Please refer to the picture I have attached to this post.

If you look at wall A...It bows inward sort of concave if you will. Wall B is impossibly contoured at the bottom where the wall meets the floor and as a result is SO not straight.

The area coloured in with lines is whats to be tiled. The floor is completely unlevel. If you put his 480mmx480mm porcelain tiles down on the floor and you push one corner down, the opposing corner lifts up. Now you tell me? Warped tiles? OR crappy floor? There is DEFINITELY a raised section of the floor where some amoeba tried to level out the area but failed dismally.

Also, the client didn't fancy having the floor levelled because he didn't want to raise the height of the floor. Now the way I see it, there is no "non-commercial" way to straighten out a floor without raising the height of the floor. Yes ok so maybe one doesn't have to use self levelling compound true but even if you put some sort of thin wooden cover over it you're still possibly left with un safe areas underneath that wood and what ever the thickness of the wood you're more than likely going to lift the floor by that equivalent so please tell me this guy was talking out of his rear end because no amount of technical explanation got this poor soul to understand what I was saying and to make matters worse, he tried to catch me out by doing his own "homework" to find out how one is supposed to tile, I mean what a fruit cake. You know when someone makes you feel stupid about what you know and you end up questioning yourself? Which, by definition, is completely daft because I'm the tiler and I know what works and what doesn't.

Now if you guys have come across such an untrusting, know it all type of character before then firstly let me sympathise because getting through to this dude was like trying to rid a mosquito of its incessent need to suck blood!!!

Anyway, please look at the picture attached and tell me how you guys would go about setting out this cowboy's floor. I had a massive issue with pinching grout lines and no amount of give and take anywhere fixed the problem. Also, I used 5mm spacers. I know for floors one should really try to do it by eye as best you can because using spacers assumes that all your tiles are perfectly the same size. He wanted spacers and he wasn't having it that his tiles are "possibly not the same size". They weren't rectified tiles so what is the chance that they would ALL be exactly the same? IMPOSSIBLE I say...

Excuse my tone in this post if it seems like I'm annoyed, its because I am but I would really appreciate any help from any of you....

Thanks in advance guys and girls...

Regards,

Tileboy

[Brendan]

Well me personally i would tile from the centre of the room out, and dry tile abit to see if everything looks good from on coming rooms, everyone does it different i guess, but when i do it this way and it looks st8 from the eye, doent mean it is always st8, but if looks good of your eye then cust will also like it, can never really go of a wall, as ive very rarely see a st8 wall here lol, and have had the problem many times with unleveled floors, but are fixable if not to much unleve when tiling itl, but from the sounds of it, his was bad, so like you said it would need self leveling put down, and if he didnt want that and refused to have it, then best thing to say is, u really recommed you put it down or your floor is going to look real bad and uneven and u have advised him of this and if he still wants you to go ahead, well its upto u, me personally id prob just say i aint doing it, as its better to loose 1 job than get yourself a bad name for a tiling job you didnt really wanta do, as u can do 100 great jobs m8 and them 1 or 2 bad ones hunt u more than your great ones, well this is just my 2sec worth :P, am sure theres alot more people on here that will give you alot better advise, but every little helps


o p.s. also look from wall B down the room, and look at the dry tiles u put down to see if looks good to :P

Hope this helps ya abit m8

[faithhealer]

Either walk away Or try to get on a bit better with your customer. I don't think he was trying to catch you out perhaps he's been 'had' before by a tradesman!! Don't even think about 'thin wood'!! but explain that a SLC will only take it to the heighest existing point (if you wish) Take a deep breath and get back in there mate

[cornish_crofter]

Setting out I discuss with the customer anyway.

As far as levelling the floor. If he's that concerned about the height, you've always got the option of taking out that area of SLC and starting afresh if that would help.

I have had difficult customers. The great thing is that if they show their true colours before the job even gets off the ground, then you know what you're dealing with.

[Brendan]

I have had difficult customers. The great thing is that if they show their true colours before the job even gets off the ground, then you know what you're dealing with.

As he said here, if this is what hes like at the start, just think what hes going to be like when your done and something is wrong with the tiling, as in uneven or anything outa place, your goinga have a hell of a time trying to get money of him.

But all in all m8, just be carefull, as its never good walking away from a job, but id rather walk away if i knew for sure that the floor is unfixable when tiling it, as in that its way to unlevel on the floor, as these sorta jobs i wouldnt want to put my rep on line for something that u know at start, is going to be a mess up.

Up to you in the end m8, if its not to unlevel you can always work it out when tiling, but with these size of tiles, your goinga have problems

goodluck with whatever you decide m8.

[doug boardley]

I've actually asked a couple of customers what they need me for.......as they obviously kow it all already! I'd start from centre of main room tileboy and work out to perimeters ensuring longest cut end will leave a healthy sized cut

[Eddie]

I did a job last year, where the concrete floor was really high in the middle, it dropped off by 20mm to the walls. The customer didn't want me to level the floor, because of the step up at the door, or dig the middle out. i did the best i could with it, the lady thinks it's great but i wasn't happy with the finnish. I would walk away next time.

Edd

[Brendan]

I did a job last year, where the concrete floor was really high in the middle, it dropped off by 20mm to the walls. The customer didn't want me to level the floor, because of the step up at the door, or dig the middle out. i did the best i could with it, the lady thinks it's great but i wasn't happy with the finnish. I would walk away next time.

Edd

Thats it edd m8 we all learn from our mistakes, i had a bathroom about a year ago or so, and 1 wall was way off, bottom of the wall was in and top was umm few inchs out, i was like theres no way i can build the bottom half of that wall out, she just wanted me to tile it and so i did, she was happy at the end of it but my god i hated it so much as you could see the wall from the side that top half was way out more. Now if i ran into something like that, id just say it needs to be fixed or i cant do it, as even know someone tells you its ok, its your name to that job always, and i dont think its worth putting your name to something, if you know its going to look bad, but i still learn new things everyday as am sure everyone ele does to

[Eddie]

Your right Brendan, learning something new with every job. the only reason i did that floor, was it was my mother in laws. Now every time i visit them, i see the floor, and cringe.

[Brendan]

Your right Brendan, learning something new with every job. the only reason i did that floor, was it was my mother in laws. Now every time i visit them, i see the floor, and cringe.

lol indeed m8, but bet she happy you done it for her . Thing with people who tile for example, they see things that other (normal) people would never see in a life time in a tiling job :P. cant lie ive seen some things ive done before that make me cringe lol but people ive done it for never would see it or have, but am same m8, every job i do even now i still learn new things . My god when i look at some peoples tiling on here i think dam i got alot to learn still lol the joys of life haha. Like swimming pools and stuff, id know sorta where to start and so, na forget that, id be so losted lol as never have done 1, but id glady give it a bash, only way to learn is to try :P and if mess it up id have to take it all up and pay for new tiles and just say look sorry you goinga have to get in a tiler lol ;D haha

[whitebeam]

If you don't level the floor then you will have to use large amounts of addy, which will take longer in the long run

[graham31]

Done a quote last week guy had tried to prep walls himself by the way of removing tiles and plastering large bits and paint was still on the wall and flaking......Told him i'd prep the rest but he wanted to save money so told him i needed bits plastered,paint off the walls

Needless to say i got a "i've got your number" so i don't expect to here back from him as he had all the addy and grout(BAL) think he was looking for info and was gony do it himself

[hillhead]

I hit a floor once that was 20mm down over 14 feet and 8mm down the other way,£7 yd tiles were being fitted,cheap job in a rented house,all the floors were off in in including one living area which was attached through an archway,i had some fight there !!!! oh dear.

[Brendan]

Done a quote last week guy had tried to prep walls himself by the way of removing tiles and plastering large bits and paint was still on the wall and flaking......Told him i'd prep the rest but he wanted to save money so told him i needed bits plastered,paint off the walls

Needless to say i got a "i've got your number" so i don't expect to here back from him as he had all the addy and grout(BAL) think he was looking for info and was gony do it himself

haha have had them m8, he kick himself after he done it himself and it looks so bad he will have to replace them an get someone in to do it for him.

few weeks before xmas 1 of my sisters wanted her kitchen tiled and cost her a few hundred for tiles, said was to busy at the time to do it and to wait abit, but she was to much rush rush, ended up getting a so called handy man in to do it, my god he so messed it up and i mean clearly messed it up bad, she though o he was cheap and when with him, now she wants to rip them all off and get me to tile it, so in end cost her alot more, and best about it was the week after he done it, i sorta had no work, so could of done it. Only thing i could say to her was leason learned. :P

[tileboy]

Hey guys...

Thank you all so much for your positive response. Its nice to know I can come here and get good advice in a positive environment. The end result for this job is that I've walked away. Sad but unfortunately true. I don't know about you guys but I can't work when big brother himself is looking over my shoulder. It makes me uncomfortable and then no doubt I'm just going to be prone to make mistakes.

I worked two days on his job, prepping the splashback because when he removed his old tiles he left pits in the plaster obviously from the way in which he hacked the tiles off. I asked him to get a plasterer in to please fix that as not only was the wall for splashback area so uneven and rough with the dot and dab addy left behind but it was full of holes so what happens? He gets some mentally challenged soul to fill the pits with either addy or plaster what ever it was I couldn't tell but now you shoulda seen what it looked like. To give you an idea of what he expected me to tile from please refer to the pictures I've attached to this reply. Some of the pics show what the splashback looked like with the dot and dab clearly still showing and the pittiful attempt to straighten the window edge. Then look at the pics of what it looked like once I sanded it down and re-skimmed the splashback to try make it tileable. Tell me what you guys think?

Anyway, so in the end....He then comes back with all sorts of things saying stuff like he was going to get someone in again and I shouldn't have spent the most of one day prepping the area. Lack of communication I say, he's just picking at straws now to make me look bad. Not man or beast could tile that splashback, it looked like the remenance of the Island of Malta after the 2nd world war invasion now if any of you have ever been to Malta you'll know exactly what I mean.

Anyway, so the short of it is that I don't get paid for my two days work on site but I used some of his tiles in his house, some I had to cut and so I guess thats my loss. So we're quits by the looks of things. I took all my addy and various other materials back and I left his premises.

Its unfortunate that my first job has to go pear shaped but so you learn I guess. You guys have all suggested that its bad to walk away and I so agree with you but in a situation like this where the customer thinks he knows more about tiling than you do because he's done his "homework" and tries to view a floor with only logic (not taking into account spacer usage and non-rectified tiles) then what do you do? I couldn't convince him that my attempt was valid and that he has a flawed room and if you have a flawed starting point then surely he cannot expect smooth sailing all the way through or expect the tiling to look like you've just walked in bloody atlantis itself.

Anyway, so....There you go. First job lesson learned. I'm in South Africa by the way guys. I did my tile training in the UK to BS 5385. So I think I have a pretty good idea of how to and when to but you see the difference is that in SA we build with bricks and cement ONLY. No no wood. No gas. No double glazing, you know...that kinda thing. The tolerances to which builders build in this country is "S H O C K I N G"...The tolerances to which tilers, tile is beyond shocking. Your average non commercial tiler that takes up a job in a kitchen or someone's bathroom can't afford a wet cutter. They only have manual cutters. Now you tell me how in the hell anyone is going to cut around fittings or wall edges or what have you like I did at this guy's house without a wet cutter?

I'm lucky enough to have a wet cutter because I brought mine with me from England when I left. The answer? They bloody nip it...thats how!!!

If you have a cut around a wall edge then guess what happens with the piece that goes around the wall? It's obviously going to break off isn't it? Well, no matter cuz all the average dude does is take the broken piece and stick it down with the other piece as this is somehow accepted.

So thats why my confidence is a bit busted because here I come with my wet cutter and I work as neat as if I'm doing a floor for the Queen herself and mister "I know because I've asked my friends" comes in and starts making me feel stupid...

No contractor will take on a job so small here because it's just not worth their while, so you're left with having to take on a tiler that has no wet cutter and will make your kitchen floor look pants...

I had to consult on a 4 story penthouse apartment in a swanky part of town the other day and man this must be THE most expensive house I have ever been in. This place was worth R20 Million. Which in GBP is about 1.4Million GBP. Not sure if you guys have been in such posh surroundings but for me it was well huge. This dude, had white marble as thick as my imagination on the floor. The penthouse, has massive round supporting columns around which the white marble had to be shaped so you would imagine that they'd contour the marble around the pillar but no such luck. It was roughley cut with at least 1CM or 1.5CM's gap between the pillar and the edge of the tile.

This is the tolerance to which people work in this country so what am I to do with my perfectionist ways? How do I bridge the gap between being prideful in what I do and being the best tiler I can be when everyone around me tiles like a dogs breakfast? or I have "clever" customers thinking they know more than I do?

Surely if he claims to know how to then what the hell did he get me in for? He may as well do it himself!!!

Anyway, I'm sure you can tell that I'm slightly sore from my first outing. Thank you for reading guys, my rant is officially over!!! Ha ha ha!!!

Kind regards to all of you...

Tileboy :-))

[Brendan]

Hey guys...

Thank you all so much for your positive response. Its nice to know I can come here and get good advice in a positive environment. The end result for this job is that I've walked away. Sad but unfortunately true. I don't know about you guys but I can't work when big brother himself is looking over my shoulder. It makes me uncomfortable and then no doubt I'm just going to be prone to make mistakes.

I worked two days on his job, prepping the splashback because when he removed his old tiles he left pits in the plaster obviously from the way in which he hacked the tiles off. I asked him to get a plasterer in to please fix that as not only was the wall for splashback area so uneven and rough with the dot and dab addy left behind but it was full of holes so what happens? He gets some mentally challenged soul to fill the pits with either addy or plaster what ever it was I couldn't tell but now you shoulda seen what it looked like. To give you an idea of what he expected me to tile from please refer to the pictures I've attached to this reply. Some of the pics show what the splashback looked like with the dot and dab clearly still showing and the pittiful attempt to straighten the window edge. Then look at the pics of what it looked like once I sanded it down and re-skimmed the splashback to try make it tileable. Tell me what you guys think?

Anyway, so in the end....He then comes back with all sorts of things saying stuff like he was going to get someone in again and I shouldn't have spent the most of one day prepping the area. Lack of communication I say, he's just picking at straws now to make me look bad. Not man or beast could tile that splashback, it looked like the remenance of the Island of Malta after the 2nd world war invasion now if any of you have ever been to Malta you'll know exactly what I mean.

Anyway, so the short of it is that I don't get paid for my two days work on site but I used some of his tiles in his house, some I had to cut and so I guess thats my loss. So we're quits by the looks of things. I took all my addy and various other materials back and I left his premises.

Its unfortunate that my first job has to go pear shaped but so you learn I guess. You guys have all suggested that its bad to walk away and I so agree with you but in a situation like this where the customer thinks he knows more about tiling than you do because he's done his "homework" and tries to view a floor with only logic (not taking into account spacer usage and non-rectified tiles) then what do you do? I couldn't convince him that my attempt was valid and that he has a flawed room and if you have a flawed starting point then surely he cannot expect smooth sailing all the way through or expect the tiling to look like you've just walked in bloody atlantis itself.

Anyway, so....There you go. First job lesson learned. I'm in South Africa by the way guys. I did my tile training in the UK to BS 5385. So I think I have a pretty good idea of how to and when to but you see the difference is that in SA we build with bricks and cement ONLY. No no wood. No gas. No double glazing, you know...that kinda thing. The tolerances to which builders build in this country is "S H O C K I N G"...The tolerances to which tilers, tile is beyond shocking. Your average non commercial tiler that takes up a job in a kitchen or someone's bathroom can't afford a wet cutter. They only have manual cutters. Now you tell me how in the hell anyone is going to cut around fittings or wall edges or what have you like I did at this guy's house without a wet cutter?

I'm lucky enough to have a wet cutter because I brought mine with me from England when I left. The answer? They bloody nip it...thats how!!!

If you have a cut around a wall edge then guess what happens with the piece that goes around the wall? It's obviously going to break off isn't it? Well, no matter cuz all the average dude does is take the broken piece and stick it down with the other piece as this is somehow accepted.

So thats why my confidence is a bit busted because here I come with my wet cutter and I work as neat as if I'm doing a floor for the Queen herself and mister "I know because I've asked my friends" comes in and starts making me feel stupid...

No contractor will take on a job so small here because it's just not worth their while, so you're left with having to take on a tiler that has no wet cutter and will make your kitchen floor look pants...

I had to consult on a 4 story penthouse apartment in a swanky part of town the other day and man this must be THE most expensive house I have ever been in. This place was worth R20 Million. Which in GBP is about 1.4Million GBP. Not sure if you guys have been in such posh surroundings but for me it was well huge. This dude, had white marble as thick as my imagination on the floor. The penthouse, has massive round supporting columns around which the white marble had to be shaped so you would imagine that they'd contour the marble around the pillar but no such luck. It was roughley cut with at least 1CM or 1.5CM's gap between the pillar and the edge of the tile.

This is the tolerance to which people work in this country so what am I to do with my perfectionist ways? How do I bridge the gap between being prideful in what I do and being the best tiler I can be when everyone around me tiles like a dogs breakfast? or I have "clever" customers thinking they know more than I do?

Surely if he claims to know how to then what the hell did he get me in for? He may as well do it himself!!!

Anyway, I'm sure you can tell that I'm slightly sore from my first outing. Thank you for reading guys, my rant is officially over!!! Ha ha ha!!!

Kind regards to all of you...

Tileboy :-))

Everyone learns new lessons everyday m8, and if he was that much of a pain and the place was so bad and he didnt want u to do your job the way u wanted it, then you are right in walking away. Better to loose a job from walking away than doing the job and it looking so bad, as then your name is stuck to that job and it aint worth it m8, like we all say it isnt good to walk away but trust me if he doesnt listen and is being such a pain at the start then it would of got awhole lot worse, so walking away is best choose here.

M8 with the sounds of it, the tilers there just dont care in there work and if you care about your work and take your time and do a great job (o and u sound like you are going to be a good tiler) then people will always remember you and when the word gets around of your good work, u think they going to get in them other tilers to make a mess of things? hell no they be looking you m8 so keep the head up and the work u do good and all will fall into place for you m8

[oogabooga]

Tileboy, don't worry too much mate, you're going to run across the odd spanker now and then. Most of these types you've described are very demanding and expect impeccable standards of everyone else but themselves. It's a technique they use to weasel out of paying people what they're due - nitpick about everything so they can justify non or short payment. Thankfully I've only ever run across a few, but have heard of exactly the same ploy used many times on other trades. You soon get to recognise the bad apples and weed them out when quoting jobs. Trust your instincts if you get a bad vibe about a potential customer - don't work for them. Better to make no money than work your ring off and make no money eh?.

My outlook is probably a bit different than others, but a proportion of my work comes from the ability to do tiling, waterproofing, some building construction, floor & wall screeding, plastering, painting, install shower glass, install vanities, a bit of plumbing etc, etc. Obviously local codes will dictate what you can and can't do without formal training, but it's a pain in the butt (as you've found out) when you turn up to a job and despite what you've been assured, it's not ready to tile. It's very handy to possess the skills to sort most things out and get things ready for tile.

I think it would be a wise thing for you upskill yourself so that you can resolve
jobsites issues when they arise. Your customers will be very appreciative and it's more paid work for you. Sure it's a big learning curve, but with the right attitude, training, research, hard slog and time you'll establish a good reputation and be sought after.

By the way, don't they have angle grinders in the land of the Yarpies?, beats the hell out of using nippers

[Gracer]

Thats what I was going to say Oogabooga. About the only time I use a wet saw is if I'm laying stone. Angle grinder for cutting around most fixtures/corners. Different blades for different tiles.

Bad luck on having to walk out on your first job.....can't say I ever have. Been close on many occasions, but when you have already put in a lot of effort, well it seems pointless.

But yeah I hate hovering clients as well. Next time just tell them if they want to watch it will cost extra as they are learning your trade secrets, say it in a jovial manner and they usually get the hint.