This recession and saturated market -Open question

[Leatherface]

Hope I can raise something that may be a bone of contention for some of our sponsors and moderators ?

As the market seems to be saturated with tilers all vying for the same work due to the economic slow down and numerous sites closing - are all the tiling courses out there just adding to the problem ?

I personally went on a course and have no problem with courses.

BUT - that production line just keeps on rolling them out and taking the £500 or more and saying thanks and good luck.

Something may have to give eventually, if the economic downturn continues then these courses will not be able to continue training guys and giving these guys false hope that it is easy to find work.

hope it picks up again so that there is enough work for all of us.

Please discuss without preduice

[GirlRacerRed]

Hello Leatherface,

Don't forget, some guys may only be tiling part time and may concentrate on other business avenue's during the downturn. Others may leave tiling altogether in pursuit of something completely different. A guy I knew sold his tiling business and bought a nightclub! It was always something he wanted to do. And then don't forget, people retire too.

So you do need enough people coming in at the bottom to ensure there's enough tilers in the industry to fulfil the customers needs.

What does everybody else think?
GRR

[oldgit]

there is another thread that done this to death last week albeit the topic question was phrased differently.
basically us proper tilers hate you wannabeees only joking

[doug boardley]

I didn't do a course, (I don't think they were around when I was a lad), but the course people have a living to make as well, it's not their remit to steer newbies into a job as they're walking out the door imo. I think the work market is gonna be saturated for all jobs either tiling, computing, roadsweeping or whatever. When the recession is over we still need to have people who are trained up so the country can hit the ground running so to speak, and not be left behind due to lack of a skilled workforce! imo

[Leatherface]

is good to hear everyones views on this matter.
Was just meant to be an open discussion as I said without predudice.
We all have our own views

[user123]

I think it's simply that people are changing from and to allsorts of professions - I used to be a health practitioner, now I'm fascinated with all things tile, but know of various tradespeople who want to get into alternative medicine etc. We are all just moving about within the spaces, all of us just fitting into one or maybe two, like that moving squares game. I do not believe that there is even such a thing as saturation in any market per se, only that when things get tough competition seems more obvious and the perfect scapegoat. Not sure if I am making myself clear here, but different people attract different customers...and we tend to get what we believe in. All those who think the work is a tough horrible place will find it so, and those who think it is a beautiful exciting place full of potential find it so also, it and even the jobmarket is in the eye of the beholder...we only get the results we truly believe we are going to get.

There are more and more courses in all professions, not just in the tiling 'fraternity', and I reckon the more skill is out there the better, as the expectation for good work will increase amongst the customers.

[knightonthetile]

I,ve seen this comming for the past few years,its to easy today to call yourself a tiler. Don,t get me wrong i have nothing against the courses except i think they are to short. Over here in northern ireland there is a course at a local college which lasts for 1 night a week for 8 wks. Every so often a mini-bus brings about a dozen guys and the tutor to my local suppliers they walk round showroom looking at the tiling then buy the very basic tools then out into the big bad world to make they,re fortune even leaving business cards on the counter the next day. Now some poor soul is gonna maybe spend £500-£1ooo,s on tiles etc pick up a card and bingo gets a guy who has been training for 8 days. Everybody has to start somewhere i know so i really do not know what the answer is. When i served my time many years ago (27 years act) my boss made me serve 6 yrs apprentiship , did,nt get near my 1st bathroom till i was about 3rd year spent the 1st year cutting and mixing then moved onto small kitchens , door steps etc,but looking back it gave me good proper training. Sorry if i,m beginning to sound like UNCLE ALBERT (during the war).

[garythetiler]

liscensing system.
I am all for competition and think that the tiling industry may improve in time with training courses, however what i find is that the skill that the trainees have when they leave a biased to the domestic market and feel that to become a tiler you should be given modules with each module gaining you a liscense to trade at different levels. here is what i suggest what should happen firstly the inital course you go on should be called 1.foundation course in basic tiling practice , once passed the newbie should be allowed to trade in the domestic market for 6 months .
after 6months the tiler should be then reassessed and a follow up training should be given testing whether the requierd skills have been mastered ,technical knowledge has been gained and a portfolio of completed works should be submitted at this stage the tiler would achieve an intermiediate certificate and be liscensed to take on higher value work, small commercial etc
After a year of trading and a follow up training, another skill test and more technical knowledge testing the tiler should be liscensed for a full commercial ticket where by he would be registered with trading standards and the citb
I think that if we had a liscencing system
1. tilers would be better trained
2. trainng courses would make more money
3. customers would be better protected
4. individuals thinking of doing tiling would consider it more carefully as the initial cost and courses would be more expensive to cover the cost involved with the more thorough training
After 6 months if the tiler has not applied for there intermiediate liscense it should be consider that this individual is not serious about the trade and his liscense would be revoked .
An annual fee should be levied and this would be invested into a national insurance policy for any tile installation that fails by liscensed tiler

[whitebeam]

When I first started on sites there where no courses about then whatsoever and we had "Chancers" as they were called then, you only had to look at their tools to see where they were coming from. At least with courses it's giving them a chance to do a more professional job rather than just turn up with no idea and destroy a customers job. I know a few long term tilers and I don't even there've noticed the drop in work. The trouble is now that there is less work around and a lot of guys are feeling the pinch, maybe a blame thing perhaps.

[knightonthetile]

liscensing system.
I am all for competition and think that the tiling industry may improve in time with training courses, however what i find is that the skill that the trainees have when they leave a biased to the domestic market and feel that to become a tiler you should be given modules with each module gaining you a liscense to trade at different levels. here is what i suggest what should happen firstly the inital course you go on should be called 1.foundation course in basic tiling practice , once passed the newbie should be allowed to trade in the domestic market for 6 months .
after 6months the tiler should be then reassessed and a follow up training should be given testing whether the requierd skills have been mastered ,technical knowledge has been gained and a portfolio of completed works should be submitted at this stage the tiler would achieve an intermiediate certificate and be liscensed to take on higher value work, small commercial etc
After a year of trading and a follow up training, another skill test and more technical knowledge testing the tiler should be liscensed for a full commercial ticket where by he would be registered with trading standards and the citb
I think that if we had a liscencing system
1. tilers would be better trained
2. trainng courses would make more money
3. customers would be better protected
4. individuals thinking of doing tiling would consider it more carefully as the initial cost and courses would be more expensive to cover the cost involved with the more thorough training
After 6 months if the tiler has not applied for there intermiediate liscense it should be consider that this individual is not serious about the trade and his liscense would be revoked .
An annual fee should be levied and this would be invested into a national insurance policy for any tile installation that fails by liscensed tiler

thats prob one of the best posts i,ve read !!!!

[enduro]

liscensing system.
I am all for competition and think that the tiling industry may improve in time with training courses, however what i find is that the skill that the trainees have when they leave a biased to the domestic market and feel that to become a tiler you should be given modules with each module gaining you a liscense to trade at different levels. here is what i suggest what should happen firstly the inital course you go on should be called 1.foundation course in basic tiling practice , once passed the newbie should be allowed to trade in the domestic market for 6 months .
after 6months the tiler should be then reassessed and a follow up training should be given testing whether the requierd skills have been mastered ,technical knowledge has been gained and a portfolio of completed works should be submitted at this stage the tiler would achieve an intermiediate certificate and be liscensed to take on higher value work, small commercial etc
After a year of trading and a follow up training, another skill test and more technical knowledge testing the tiler should be liscensed for a full commercial ticket where by he would be registered with trading standards and the citb
I think that if we had a liscencing system
1. tilers would be better trained
2. trainng courses would make more money
3. customers would be better protected
4. individuals thinking of doing tiling would consider it more carefully as the initial cost and courses would be more expensive to cover the cost involved with the more thorough training
After 6 months if the tiler has not applied for there intermiediate liscense it should be consider that this individual is not serious about the trade and his liscense would be revoked .
An annual fee should be levied and this would be invested into a national insurance policy for any tile installation that fails by liscensed tiler

Ok if you want to pay £500 for a licence, who is going to police this? sounds like another way the government can screw us for another tax...

[garythetiler]

Ok if you want to pay £500 for a licence, who is going to police this? sounds like another way the government can screw us for another tax...

i didnt mention any amounts but if a liscensing fee was levied then you would be able to charge higher rates as your customers would be happy that if something goes wrong they are protected ,an organisation could be set up easily by the tile association or the citb or a private company supported by the trading standards organisation it wont be a closed market you could still do other jobs and take on bathroom fit outs etc but the tile installation would be backed up like a gas installation and look at the type of money those guys make because their industry is regulated

[whitebeam]

Even gas gets done in domestic houses with no qualifications by unscruples cowboys

[village tiling]

i dont have any problem with the lads who do courses but as knight said they are too short!!
i seen a course advertised the other day £1000 for a 3 week course, ok they maybe able too show u basic tiling skills but can they teach u how to deal with problems u encounter within the industry, dealing with customers, pricing jobs, knowing which adhesives too use with different tile materials and substrates. i never put a tile on the wall or floor for 2 years, i dont think its fair that these courses send the lads out after a few weeks and expect them too know everything..my advice too anyone who is doing a course is too get in touch with an experienced tiler and explain that ure on a course and looking to gain some on the job experience, you wont be on mega bucks but you will gain some valuable experience.

[GirlRacerRed]

Even gas gets done in domestic houses with no qualifications by unscruples cowboys

which is very dangerous, even if i do say so myself. i only ever use my corgi registered gas heating and plumbing engineer i've known for years. many a rented house i lived in didn't have the annual inspection and certificate. not a risk i've ever taken whilst owning my own houses.

[Leatherface]

I,ve seen this comming for the past few years,its to easy today to call yourself a tiler. Don,t get me wrong i have nothing against the courses except i think they are to short. Over here in northern ireland there is a course at a local college which lasts for 1 night a week for 8 wks. Every so often a mini-bus brings about a dozen guys and the tutor to my local suppliers they walk round showroom looking at the tiling then buy the very basic tools then out into the big bad world to make they,re fortune even leaving business cards on the counter the next day. Now some poor soul is gonna maybe spend £500-£1ooo,s on tiles etc pick up a card and bingo gets a guy who has been training for 8 days. Everybody has to start somewhere i know so i really do not know what the answer is. When i served my time many years ago (27 years act) my boss made me serve 6 yrs apprentiship , did,nt get near my 1st bathroom till i was about 3rd year spent the 1st year cutting and mixing then moved onto small kitchens , door steps etc,but looking back it gave me good proper training. Sorry if i,m beginning to sound like UNCLE ALBERT (during the war).

He he,
I know what you are saying.
A retired ( apprentice trained tiler I know ) told me a little story a while ago.
When he was seventeen ( he is around sixty now ) He started amongst other things tiling with his dad. These were the days of tiling onto sand and cement.
On his first day his dad gave him a tile with a perfect circle in the middle and also a toffee hammer, a glass scorer and some nippers - and a big pile of tiles.
He said "Right lad, cut me a hole like this then I will teach you how to tile"
Peter ( the guy in question ) went back a week later with it done and a big pile of broken tiles.
Another tiler I work with ( has been tiling for 35 years ) was not even allowed to set one tile for the first 3 years of his apprenticeship. He is probably one of the fastest, neatest and most well regarded tilers in Huddersfield now.

Problem nowadays is everything is fast track.

We all know that you cannot learn to tile in five days. It is such a shame that proper apprenticeships are not as readily available for school leavers nowadays, that is the time to learn.

[whitebeam]

Your right GRR but how many people ask to see the gas mans card with his picture and number???

[oldgit]

at the end of the day we are tilers not brain surgeons.
save your licences for gas fitters and the like.

[garythetiler]

Even gas gets done in domestic houses with no qualifications by unscruples cowboys

come one Whitebeam, thats an extreme argument ,there will always be criminals . This is an open discussion about a saturated market and a recession we have an oppoptunity to make the tile industry and being a tiler some thing special ,the tile industry in the uk is being dumbed down, look at the research and developement the germans do in their industry, look at schluter , karl dahm all the things that make tiling easier are coming from abroad because our tile industry is in such a sick state if we had a regulated tile industry like the Germans and the Americans we would all make much more money

[GirlRacerRed]

Your right GRR but how many people ask to see the gas mans card with his picture and number???

i didn't know they had cards with their pictures and number on.. never occurred to me before. will ask him next time i see him. he'll think i've cracked up! lol

more beer plz

[knightonthetile]

Just wondering how many tilers today could tile a kitchen in a powercut. How they would get round plugs etc without wet saw.and God forbid mix adhesive with a stick (arms like rambo).

[garythetiler]

may be dave or dan could start a poll ,who would pay to be a liscensed tiler

[knightonthetile]

come one Whitebeam, thats an extreme argument ,there will always be criminals . This is an open discussion about a saturated market and a recession we have an oppoptunity to make the tile industry and being a tiler some thing special ,the tile industry in the uk is being dumbed down, look at the research and developement the germans do in their industry, look at schluter , karl dahm all the things that make tiling easier are coming from abroad because our tile industry is in such a sick state if we had a regulated tile industry like the Germans and the Americans we would all make much more money

Once again i commend you sir !

[doug boardley]

Just wondering how many tilers today could tile a kitchen in a powercut. How they would get round plugs etc without wet saw.and God forbid mix adhesive with a stick (arms like rambo).

me, with my cordless jigsaw or my old tile saw(ahh)

[Dave]

may be dave or dan could start a poll ,who would pay to be a liscensed tiler

I did start a thread a few weeks back now on this.......personally i think the tiling trade should be licenced.....and if you churn out bad jobs then your licence gets revoked,just as mick the tiler said happens in oz....and then you cannot trade without it....but the biggest problem is getting the public to recognise this licence.......
A prime example is girlracer red...didn't know about id cards....


But if it could be introduced then no probs with me.....AT ALL...

[knightonthetile]

[/b]
me, with my cordless jigsaw or my old tile saw(ahh)

think i have one of them saws somewhere in the van,broke many a blade doug,you must be nearly as old as me.

[whitebeam]

It's not us that need educating it's the general public, if they started asking for qualifications then it would force guys to take the nvq's and such like to prove they can do the work and do it correctly but until someone in the higher echelons opens there eyes to this problem (which i agree with) nothing will change

[garythetiler]

Things only change if the people in the industry ALL OF US make it happen we could start a petition send it to the citb or the department of trade and industry

[whitebeam]

I thought that was what the TTA was for to be honest

[Dave]

http://www.tilersforums.co.uk/tiling...-licenced.html


here you go gary...