wooden floor problem

[marty13]

I have recently tiled a new wooden floor spec as follows
new joists set at 300mm centres then over boarded with 18mm wpb ply fixed with 50mm screws every 200mm.
The tile is 450 sq ceramic supplied by Topps, I used their rapid set flexi adhesive spread with a 10mm notched trowel, advised by them not to prime the ply.
Two weeks later one of the tiles loosened, so i revisited site and with a scraper under the tile edge was able to lift the tiles with no effort, some have a good spread adhesive over the back, the floor is also evenly covered. the adhesive does not seem to be very hard ie is easily scraped off both the tile and the floor. Whats gone wrong? Whats the best way to rectify.

[Rad2474]

I would have primed it to be on the safe side i've never had any problems with primed ply but i'm sure someone else here will be able to explain.

[doug boardley]

I'd get a test done on the addy, esp if it's scraped easily off the tile as well,

[Dave]

I heard of a similar job a few weeks back...a bad batch of palace adhesives ( flexi) that wasn't setting after about a week......
It sounds like a cal out to me...hope you have better luck with palace technical than this other customer had....he couldn't get them to come out....and topps wouldn't take the blame either..( apparantly) ...

[Daz]

I always prime as a matter of course.
That said....It does sound like an addy problem to me.

I had a conservatory back in July where I used EverBuild addy. Used 3 bags to fix all the tiles but when I stood on the first few tiles that I had fixed they were not set after 4 hours (rapid set). Dug up the "dodgy" ones and had to re-set as it wasn't worth the hassle of getting the manufacturer out, but all other tiles were fine and the re-set tiles were good when I used another bag of addy.

How old was the bag that you used?

[marty13]

Thanks for that thought it was something I was doing wrong, the adhesive was bought at the same time as the tiles about 2 weeks ago. has any body else had a problem with this adhesive.How can I get the adhesive tested?

[doug boardley]

Thanks for that thought it was something I was doing wrong, the adhesive was bought at the same time as the tiles about 2 weeks ago. has any body else had a problem with this adhesive.How can I get the adhesive tested?

there should be a tech dept on bag of adhesive, give them a ring and tell them, if they pooh pooh it, tell them to look at forum responses!

[oldgit]

just my two bobs worth,but for me you must use 2pt on any wooden floor.
im really surprised that the addy firms still say sp is ok,i have not used sp flexi ever on a wooden floor,although many many years ago i used to use rapid with an additive,but there is no way it is even 30% as good as 2pt IMO,AND TOPPS DO A 2PT FOR ABOUT £25 its not the best but still better than sp.

[doug boardley]

just my two bobs worth,but for me you must use 2pt on any wooden floor.
im really surprised that the addy firms still say sp is ok,i have not used sp flexi ever on a wooden floor,although many many years ago i used to use rapid with an additive,but there is no way it is even 30% as good as 2pt IMO,AND TOPPS DO A 2PT FOR ABOUT £25 its not the best but still better than sp.

never had a problem myself with spf on ply, as long as it's been well screwed with minimal deflection

[marty13]

My customer has been back to Topps, there response was to say the ply must be contaminated ! Allthough they have asked for the batch number of the adhesive.

[whitebeam]

Suprise Surprise marty, It's the ply now

[pjc]

just my two bobs worth,but for me you must use 2pt on any wooden floor.
im really surprised that the addy firms still say sp is ok,i have not used sp flexi ever on a wooden floor,although many many years ago i used to use rapid with an additive,but there is no way it is even 30% as good as 2pt IMO,AND TOPPS DO A 2PT FOR ABOUT £25 its not the best but still better than sp.

how would you get on fixing large format tiles with it ? the cost and bed thickness would be a problem surely :Pete

[oldgit]

the 10mm trowel you used would be fine with any 2 pt,yes it would cost more you would maybe get 4mts from the topps 2pt,but you/they have spent plenty preparing the floor where as less money has been allocated on the addy
if the floor was dead flat,which it should be you could easily have used an 8mm trowel and back butter.
its easier to get 8mm of addy to stand up than it is with 10mm unless you knock it up well stiff which imo makes the addy less sticky so you have to back butter anyway.
im not saying this floor was done wrong,im only stating how i would have done it.

[Grace'sDad]

I always thought it was better to use a tipped trowel with 2 part?

[oldgit]

I always thought it was better to use a tipped trowel with 2 part?

to be honest i go with what i know to work sometimes rather than an adhesive company just trying to sell more gear than required,i know many here disagree and say 30 year tilers are stuck in the past,but i believe much of what is taught now is well over the top,having said that i believe using sp on wood is asking for problems and i cant believe addy companies even say its ok for anything wood especially over anything over 4mts.

[doug boardley]

to be honest i go with what i know to work sometimes rather than an adhesive company just trying to sell more gear than required,i know many here disagree and say 30 year tilers are stuck in the past,but i believe much of what is taught now is well over the top,having said that i believe using sp on wood is asking for problems and i cant believe addy companies even say its ok for anything wood especially over anything over 4mts.

I'm only 3 years behind you!!

[Grace'sDad]

to be honest i go with what i know to work sometimes rather than an adhesive company just trying to sell more gear than required,i know many here disagree and say 30 year tilers are stuck in the past,but i believe much of what is taught now is well over the top,having said that i believe using sp on wood is asking for problems and i cant believe addy companies even say its ok for anything wood especially over anything over 4mts.

With you 100% on the SPF and wood. Reason I mention tipped trowles is because I went on one of BAL's "advanced" fixing courses. I didn't learn a great deal tbh but the biggest eye-opener was when we looked at achieving 100% coverage on floor tiles. The tipped trowel gave 100% every time - alright it uses more addy but it makes sense to me now that I've had a go with one!

[doug boardley]

bit of an eye opener this one for me,ah well, never to old to change!

[oldgit]

With you 100% on the SPF and wood. Reason I mention tipped trowles is because I went on one of BAL's "advanced" fixing courses. I didn't learn a great deal tbh but the biggest eye-opener was when we looked at achieving 100% coverage on floor tiles. The tipped trowel gave 100% every time - alright it uses more addy but it makes sense to me now that I've had a go with one!

ive never been fully convinced with total cover on wood i believe that 80% is better as it gives a breaker from shock, stress or expansion.

[whitebeam]

Decoupling membranes surly is the way to go on wood floors

[oldgit]

Decoupling membranes surly is the way to go on wood floors

i have to admit my experience is very limited in this field,and that is where some older tilers myself included are lacking in the tiling game.
we tend to make the very best of what is proven to us over a number of years.
but i stand by comments on overkill by addy companies in many situations.

[whitebeam]

The trouble is mate that buildings have changed, I remember doing sand/cement and sirpite. I had to learn dry linning to keep up with building methods and the same goes with tiling, The old methods did work but things are changing in modern homes and yes I also found the change hard to cope with and said the same but learnt to live with it

[oldgit]

The trouble is mate that buildings have changed, I remember doing sand/cement and sirpite. I had to learn dry linning to keep up with building methods and the same goes with tiling, The old methods did work but things are changing in modern homes and yes I also found the change hard to cope with and said the same but learnt to live with it

the problem for me is 99% of punters (i only do my own domestic work)will not pay the extra.
what is needed is a good product that is a sensible price,schulter systems etc are brilliant but well over priced for what they actually are,same with wedi and hardibacker.
there great for those with plenty too spend but many just cant afford it.

[whitebeam]

Got to agree, All the extras cost and trying to convince the customer can be difficult but I explain do you want tiles that give you problems later. I find a few plumbers I work for harder to convince

[BDS]

You wouldn`t need to convince me mate

[silver]

Hi all,
just to add to the addy probs.....received a call to price up a stone tile floor recently. the end of the call was "I need to tell you I have tried myself and took them all up". When I got there the fella had spent almost £1500 on stone tiles and adhesives from HOMEBASE....he had bought the 100mm x 100mm for the walls and 200mm x 200mm for the floor. He explained that the tub of adhesive he had used just never dried. He had gone over existing tiles...none loose...none damp....all level. Homebase had told him to prime with Unibond PVA !...which they sold him, then use this very dark grey adhesive (tub) which they sold him .......it was still soft 4>5 days later and he was skating on the tiles when he tried to put his toilet back in.
He wanted me to price to lay the "used tiles" again after he had spent ages cleaning them. As you imagine the edges were all contaminated with the dark grey adhesive and looked a mess and I wasnt happy with the reverse of the tile contaminated with whatever from the S**T adhesive, so after explaining about white SPRSF adhesive etc and PVA ! I suggested he picked the 6 dirtiest tiles and went back to homebase with the other 5 tubs of addhesive they had sold him and see the manager and
I called him later that eve......Manager after realising his staff had given all the advice had within a heart beat took the adhesive back with a full refund and exchanged the metreage of his floor tiles for new ones and he was on his way home chuffed to bits. The adhesive I used was obviously cheaper than the tub they sold him so that paid for a chunk of my price to do the floor. Floor done Friday..happy customer. Now he has seen the floor ........secured price for walls Saturday. Result for both of us !
I wish some of the other "suppliers" would be so straight and not try and deflect the blame..........how many tilers take and record batch numbers for adhesives, grouts, tanking kits etc ?
In the meantime it is their customer that suffers and parts with the dosh,,,what happened to good old customer service ?
to HOMEBASE for their complaints / refund policy....but why did happen in the first place.

[pjc]

Hi all,
just to add to the addy probs.....received a call to price up a stone tile floor recently. the end of the call was "I need to tell you I have tried myself and took them all up". When I got there the fella had spent almost £1500 on stone tiles and adhesives from HOMEBASE....he had bought the 100mm x 100mm for the walls and 200mm x 200mm for the floor. He explained that the tub of adhesive he had used just never dried. He had gone over existing tiles...none loose...none damp....all level. Homebase had told him to prime with Unibond PVA !...which they sold him, then use this very dark grey adhesive (tub) which they sold him .......it was still soft 4>5 days later and he was skating on the tiles when he tried to put his toilet back in.
He wanted me to price to lay the "used tiles" again after he had spent ages cleaning them. As you imagine the edges were all contaminated with the dark grey adhesive and looked a mess and I wasnt happy with the reverse of the tile contaminated with whatever from the S**T adhesive, so after explaining about white SPRSF adhesive etc and PVA ! I suggested he picked the 6 dirtiest tiles and went back to homebase with the other 5 tubs of addhesive they had sold him and see the manager and
I called him later that eve......Manager after realising his staff had given all the advice had within a heart beat took the adhesive back with a full refund and exchanged the metreage of his floor tiles for new ones and he was on his way home chuffed to bits. The adhesive I used was obviously cheaper than the tub they sold him so that paid for a chunk of my price to do the floor. Floor done Friday..happy customer. Now he has seen the floor ........secured price for walls Saturday. Result for both of us !
I wish some of the other "suppliers" would be so straight and not try and deflect the blame..........how many tilers take and record batch numbers for adhesives, grouts, tanking kits etc ?
In the meantime it is their customer that suffers and parts with the dosh,,,what happened to good old customer service ?
to HOMEBASE for their complaints / refund policy....but why did happen in the first place.

But homebase can afford to looked at a sheet of 12mm ply there in the week £44

[whitebeam]

..........how many tilers take and record batch numbers for adhesives, grouts, tanking kits etc ?silver quote

I asked this question before and not many by the sound of things

[doug boardley]

me included, will try to in future

[A.Tiler.]

defo sounds like adhesive problem i used to work for topps and had a complaint the same on the palace adhesive or toppfix as its labled