Help & advise - Faulty Tiles

[karen2906]

I have recently had ceramic floor tiles, (bought from B & Q) laid down on my kitchen floor. My brother kindly laid them for me and did and excellent job (he's not a professional).
Approximately two weeks after the tiles were laid, to my horror I noticed cream lines had suddenly appeared on around 1/2 of the tiles laid. The lines run straight across each tile from edge to edge and is about 3/4 inch deep and appears on exactly the same position on each tile effected, the line also runs under the colour of the tile, I couldn't believe how these lines could just appear like this after two weeks of them being laid, a friend of mine suggested that it could be due to the fact that the air has now got to them and this has caused the defect to appear.
I got in touch with B & Q straight away and their manager came out, he took digital photos and e mailed them onto Johnsons Tiles. I received a phone call from Johnsons who said they had never seen anything like it before, they also said that they don't make these tiles that they import them from Spain, they then asked me to take up a small piece of the tile showing the line so that they could examine and do tests on it, which I did and posted it to them.
I have now received a letter stating that the tiles are sub standard, and they put the tile through various tests, refiring it to 1150 degrees Celcius, which shows that the the line/defect must have been showing before they were fixed to the floor so the fault lies with the tile fitter. They will not believe that the tiles were in perfect condition when laid - I mean who in their right mind would lay tiles with such a prominent defect running through them. I also cleaned the grout off myself on my hands and knees and no way was that line there. Johnsons have offered me new tiles but this certainly does not compensate me, as the whole of the floor is going to have to come up and new ones laid which will cost! - never mind the mess, which I dread!!
I have replied by letter to Johnsons, but if they won't budge then we will have to take them to the small claims court - I'm sorry this post is so long but I was just wondering if anyone out there has ever come across this strange occurence with tiles, and if anyone knows or has any theories of how these lines could just appear after 2 weeks of the tiles being laid. I do have digital photos of the sub standard tiles if anyone wants me to e mail them. PLEASE HELP if you can. Thanks

[GazTech]

Not reading the post correctly..does his line defect follow on big line across a few tiles in a straight line ?

[cornish_crofter]

My first thought is that your contract is with B and Q, not the importers.

Hence I suspect it's B&Q that you would need to take to court, or at least put in a claim to. B&Q have a bit of a reputation for trying to pass the buck to the supplier and save themselves the cost of compensating you.

contact B&Q head office regarding this and mention Sales of Goods Act. If you need further legal info here I suggest you contact Consumer Direct.

I have not come across this before with tiles.

[Dave]

Hi karen..can you upload some pics into an album in your profile and then we can see them.?

p.s. oh!! and welcome and thanks for sharing your story with us...i hope we can try and help..

[karen2906]

The line appears once only on each affected tile, - sorry if I'm not explaining it very well

[cornish_crofter]

The line appears once only on each affected tile, - sorry if I'm not explaining it very well

Sorry for my lack of manners, Welcome to the forum Karen

Just a wild guess, but could the tiles have flexed since they were installed?

Obviously they would have been laid on a firm bed of adhesive but it may take the tiniest of movement?????

Or am I talking total nonsense

Also, they probably were substandard when laid, but the fault may not have been obvious...

Have they examined a tile that has NOT been laid, and is the fault obvious on that one?

[GazTech]

The line appears once only on each affected tile, - sorry if I'm not explaining it very well

Now thats wierd....

[karen2906]

Hi karen..can you upload some pics into an album in your profile and then we can see them.?

p.s. oh!! and welcome and thanks for sharing your story with us...i hope we can try and help..

Hi Dave - not sure how I can do this as the photos are the ones B & Q took & they e mailed them to me

[Grace'sDad]

Cornish Crofter is 100% right - any claim you have will be with B&Q.
The company I used to work for supplied B&Q and part of their supply agreement was to accept customer returns with no quibble.

I would guess that B&Q will keep trying to refer you back to the manufacturer, but you really need to put everything in writing, sent recorded delivery etc. Check online for the sale of goods act and quote it in a letter to B&Q Head Office. Give them 2 weeks to reply before you start any action though.

Put some photos on here and the professional opinions of the members, along with Johnson's own findings, should put you in a strong position to win your case.

[cornish_crofter]

Hi Dave - not sure how I can do this as the photos are the ones B & Q took & they e mailed them to me

If you e mail them to me I'll see what I can do if you like.

my e mail is southwestbfg@yahoo.co.uk

[GazTech]

Blimey...tilers/solicitors.co.uk

[karen2906]

Sorry for my lack of manners, Welcome to the forum Karen

Just a wild guess, but could the tiles have flexed since they were installed?

Obviously they would have been laid on a firm bed of adhesive but it may take the tiniest of movement?????

Or am I talking total nonsense

Also, they probably were substandard when laid, but the fault may not have been obvious...

Have they examined a tile that has NOT been laid, and is the fault obvious on that one?

Hi CC
Not all the tiles laid have the line appearing on them only some are sub standard, als I was left with a couple of spares which I've left out in the light and washed etc but still remain perfect.

[GazTech]

Try this website
Why not to buy tiles from B&Q.co.uk

[cornish_crofter]

To my mind the fact that the tiles you have NOT laid appear to be OK should put you in a stronger position.

As Grace's Dad says, you need to contact B&Q Head office.

Making the following points.

Your contract is with B&Q, not their suppliers. The fact that they have asked their suppliers to investigate and report their findings, does not discharge their liability with respect to the Sales of Goods act.

In answer to the response that the tiles were faulty when fitted, you could not reasonably be in a position to know this as such faults were not evident when you purchased and fitted them. (It's not like they were discoloured, which you would have noticed straight away).

B&Q are at fault for supplying you with subtandard products, and due diligance on your part was present (you inspected them before you fitted them), but, as, from the unfitted samples you have, it is obvious that the fault would not be evident upon initial inspection, you consider the retailer liable to you for the cost of replacement and refitting.

In addition, let us see the photos and some more experienced members will be able to comment.

[pjc]

take bq to small claims court i think you would win but i believe they would pay up before the judge ordered them to but they would leave it to the last minute and the good thing Johnson's have done the hard work for you:Pete

[cornish_crofter]

Try this website
Why not to buy tiles from B&Q.co.uk

Gaz, I think your signature is particularly relevent here.

"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten"

It's not Karen I'm having a dig at, but B&Q. I was using them quite a bit for general consumables. As I drive past them most Mondays on another errand, I quite often have a shopping list.

Lately, I'm taking loads back because it is absolutely carp!

I think the girls on the returns desk are now on first name terms with me

[cornish_crofter]

Karen, you are not alone in your dissatisfaction.

http://www.clik2complaints.co.uk/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?forum=7&post_id=3927&topic_id=429

http://www.tilersforums.co.uk/tiling-forum/8047-where-buy-tiles-what-look.html

Plus my own experiences posted on this site:

http://www.tilersforums.co.uk/tiling-forum/14847-banana-shaped-tiles-other-issues.html

The truth of the matter is that B&Q and the other sheds are going to rip off hardworking people, at a time when we all need to get the best value for money, just so they can declare a profit.

Whilst the buying public at large are not being made aware of this tile scam operated by these sheds, they will continue to be fobbed of with sub standard goods and pathetic excuses.

This is a time when we all need to KNOW THE MARKET that we are buying from, and KNOW OUR RIGHTS as consumers.

B&Q are not a charity, they don't introduce quality because they want to supply quality goods. They introduce quality in their ranges when they can't get away without it. They have a policy to fob the customer off to their suppliers whereas they know full well what their responsibilities are under the SALE OF GOODS ACT.

Maybe once the secret is out they will finally realise that they need to behave as responsible retailers and honour their legal and moral obligations.

I am not a specialist tiler, unlike most of the other guys who've responded on this thread, but even I can see that shed tiles have become WORSE lately. Only in the last two jobs have I had instances where tiles are making contact at th edges, but not in the middle of a flat surface. You can tell this when you pull them off again, and see where the adhesive has come into contact with the surface. There is only one explanation for this, the tiles are bent.

[karen2906]

take bq to small claims court i think you would win but i believe they would pay up before the judge ordered them to but they would leave it to the last minute and the good thing Johnson's have done the hard work for you:Pete

Pete - Johnsons haven't done me any favours as they are saying that the tiles were showing the fault before they were laid (not true, THE FAULT/LINE SHOWED UP TWO WEEKS AFTER THEY WERE LAID) and that we shouldn't have laid them, but returned them back to B & Q - sorry if I haven't explained myself very well

[pjtiler]

theres always a declaimer on the box love
sorry its your word against theres
take them to court by all means
you,ll loose

[cornish_crofter]

Pete - Johnsons haven't done me any favours as they are saying that the tiles were showing the fault before they were laid (not true, THE FAULT/LINE SHOWED UP TWO WEEKS AFTER THEY WERE LAID) and that we shouldn't have laid them, but returned them back to B & Q - sorry if I haven't explained myself very well

Exactly, and you can challenge them on that because they don't actually have the evidence to back this up, so you need to raise this with B&Q.

They admit that they are faulty but wrongly claim that the fault lines were showing before the tiles were laid. On what basis to they make this claim? After all you sent them a tile that HAD been laid.

[karen2906]

Exactly, and you can challenge them on that because they don't actually have the evidence to back this up, so you need to raise this with B&Q.

They admit that they are faulty but wrongly claim that the fault lines were showing before the tiles were laid. On what basis to they make this claim? After all you sent them a tile that HAD been laid.

This is part of what Johnsons reply was in their letter to me:
"To rule out anything that might have caused the stripe to appear after it was produced, the piece (tile) was refired to 1150 degrees celsius and the section re-examined. Again, the images show that the deep engobe layer is still visible.
To sum up, this clearly demonstrates that the stripe on the tile was present before the tiles were fixed to the floor and that it was a fault which occurred during the production process prior to firing. It could not have developed at a later stage after fixing".

Johnsons also sent me photo's of the layers of the tiles - I'm afraid it all goes over my head, but science isn't always right

[Oli]

Hi Karen,

Sorry to hear about your problems, if you forward me emails you have with photos on to

sst-tiling@blueyonder.co.uk

ill post them up for other members to see, its hard to picture something such as this without seeing it the photos would be really helpfull.

[doug boardley]

when I did my HNC we covered contract law,if you can get to look at a copy of Galbraiths Building and Land Management Law for Students (fourth edition) on page 251 it describes the routes of liability, as I read it,your claim is mainly,but not limited to, B&Q. If you speak to their legal dept. throw in a mention of "Donoghue vs Stevenson" (a landmark case), that should make them sit up!!

[cornish_crofter]

Karen

I'm trying to find the photos you forwarded to me. What you have forwarded appears to be unreadable. Can you pull off the JPG files onto another e mail and send that please.

[cornish_crofter]

This is part of what Johnsons reply was in their letter to me:
"To rule out anything that might have caused the stripe to appear after it was produced, the piece (tile) was refired to 1150 degrees celsius and the section re-examined. Again, the images show that the deep engobe layer is still visible.
To sum up, this clearly demonstrates that the stripe on the tile was present before the tiles were fixed to the floor and that it was a fault which occurred during the production process prior to firing. It could not have developed at a later stage after fixing".

Johnsons also sent me photo's of the layers of the tiles - I'm afraid it all goes over my head, but science isn't always right

I think they are trying to argue that re firing them should have eliminated the stripe if it wasn't there in the first place, that is why the unfitted tiles you have are key in this arguement.

Also, it would be worth your while asking B&Q to check their stocks of the same batches to see if stripes can be seen....

[cornish_crofter]

Karen

I think you've actually cut and pasted your whole e mail interface and sent it to me.

Can you just forward the e mail to me, by clicking on the FORWARD button and entering my e mail address.

[pjc]

karan have you any tiles left ?

[karen2906]

Karen

I think you've actually cut and pasted your whole e mail interface and sent it to me.

Can you just forward the e mail to me, by clicking on the FORWARD button and entering my e mail address.

Ooops sorry C.C. I need some help - the photos are attachments in my in box (B & Q e mailed them to me). How do I now attach them to you or on this forum - I'm afraid I'm only basic computer literate!!!

[karen2906]

karan have you any tiles left ?

Yes, I have 2 spares, but they are from a different batch, we just ran out near the end of tiling so I returned to B & Q and bought a box of broken tiles (cost just £3) as we only needed a couple for edging and in the box were a few complete tiles.

[cornish_crofter]

1) Download the attachments into a folder on your computer.
2) create a new e mail then use the paper clip icon to attach them to that e mail, you'll need to go to the folder they are located in then select them.
3) Send me the new e mail.

Can you not simply forward the e mail that B&Q sent?