Help!: Cracked Tiles.

[jaycee1]

I wonder if anybody could offer an opinion. Prior to my floor being tiled I noticed cracks in the screed in the corners of the room approx 3/4 metre long and 2-3 mm wide. This narrowed when the piped underfloor heating was on. My builder said it wasn't a problem and often occurred in areas adjacent to large areas of glass like mine. The tiler said he was happy to tile if the builder had given the OK and was using flexible adhesive anyway. After about a week cracks have appeared in the tiles in these areas. The builder is trying to put the blame on our tiler or screeder, the screeder ( subcontracted by the builder) says had he been contacted about the cracks he would have advised against tiling without the use of Schluter matting. The tiler is not aware of that product. The tiles are 95 x 45 frost resistant porcelein and we have had 38 sq metres laid Total for the job including tiles fitting etc was nearly £4000 so retiling and fitting the matting is out of the question. The tiler was recommended to us and not cheap. Could blame be aportioned or is it just one of those things and is there anything we could do to the cracks now they have been re-exposed.

[Sir Ramic]

A tiler who hasnt heard of Schluter??? Alarm bells are ringing right away.

[Sir Ramic]

Let us have as much info as possible.
You say the heating was on as you saw cracks narrow ? So the heating was tested?
Was the heating on or off when tiling was done? If it was off was the floor let to cool before tiling?

Are you sure the tiler was using a suitable flexible adhesive?


Seems to me that the easiest and cheapest option is to try and remove cracked tiles. The cracks in the screed could be repaired by "stitching" (maybe) then retiled. Should the tiles fail again then i am afraid there would be little option but to remove all tiles and relay using a crack isolation membrane such as Schluter or Dural.

[bigandy]

Am with sir ramic a tiler who has nt heard of a decoupling membraine? And you say he knew off this expansion/contraction and carried on with only flexi adhesive?

Major alarm bells are sounding out

you mentioned glass in your post but not where or what it was

[jaycee1]

Thankyou to you all for your quick responses. The glass in question is a large 5 metre sliding patio door. The cracked areas are on the diagonal on the corners of the room.
The screed was laid in Feb. Cracks noticed about July. The heating only tested late August. Heating was off during tiling and we kept it off for about 3 days afterwards. I have to take the tilers word for it that he was using flexible adhesive. Is "stitching" easy to do? We had wondered about grinding out around the cracks, to accomodate a small piece of the matting and still maintain a level with the adjacent tiles.
We did approach a few tilers recommended by the local tile shop and none knew of the matting.

[bigandy]

I would stay away from that shop if they dont know one of the mainstays of our industry!! Sorry

[redrex]

Hi Jaycee1,

I am finding more and more requests to rectify this kind of mistake, ....my last one(pics in gallery) was because the developer wanted to save a few quid (I guess) and didn't want to use ditra/kerdi etc or put in a joint and figured that it would last a year or two. It isn't fatal, you don't need to rip it all out and start again-look on the bright side, at least you know where the problem is. Takes a bit of patience and care but can be done...and it will cost a lot less than relaying-and who knows, maybe claim the cost back from whoever is at fault?. If you are anywhere near West London and would like some complimentary advice in person, I would be delighted to help-please mail me if you think I can.

Redrex

[jaycee1]

Thankyou Redrex I wish I did live near London I have just looked at you photos and you have done a good job. I feel a little more optimistic in that a repair may be possible. I think it may have to be a different tiler though. I will let you know the out come.

[bigandy]

Jaycee1 why not tell us all where in the country you are from and someone on here might be able to offer some advise or even call round as redrex is to far away

[jaycee1]

I live near Wilmslow in Cheshire. I do feel I am in quite a difficult situation between the builder and the tiler though.

[Sir Ramic]

If you can let us know where abouts you are in the country one of the many tilers on here may be able to assist even if only as information. Its much better if we can see the problem.
The mention of glass is confusing as i dont see what that has to do with anything.
3 Days after tiling is too soon for the heating to be turned on, some manufacturers say the heaing should be fired up before tiling and then turned off when the screed has reached the level required. This is to make sure the screed does not crack. When all are happy the tiles can be laid when the heating has been off for a few days and floor is normal temperature. The heating should only be switched back on after between 10 and 28 days (depending on manufacturers instructions) and then only at about 5 degree daily increments until full temperature is achieved.

[bigandy]

well for my two peneth the tiler and the shop are at fault for not using decoupling membraine(which ever manufacturer).especially with the knowledge of the expansion.
hang around a while until one of the admins or tech's are on and they will be able to give you letter and verse

[whitebeam]

A tiler who has'nt heard of ditra

[jaycee1]

I do appreciate all your comments. Neither builder, tiler or plumber advised us about the gradual turn on of the heating. To be honest the whole build has been a disaster so nothing now surprises me. It was the builder who said the glass caused the problem He was thinking about the magnifying effect when the sun shone through onto the screed. I have found out through the screeder that this builder had similar problems with a conservatory he had done last year but then the screeder was called in at an earlier stage and was able to rectify the cracks before the tiles were laid. I wish he had told me.

[Dave]

Hi jaycee...Sorry to hear of your predicament....

Firstly if expansion of the screed was visable whilst the heating was on and this was mentioned to your tiler then he should have known what to use to give you a fail safe installation...not say Ok if the builder say's it's ok then i will tile it....

The biggest cause of tiling installations failing onto heated screeds is incorrect preperation work....

1 : Expansion joints should have been installed into the screed around the rooms perimeter....where these in place..?

2 : An un-coupling membrane like schluter ditra mat should have been used and again perimeter joints incorporated into the tiling installation.

These un-coupling mats allow the substrate to expand and contract without causing stress to the tiled floor...

Now your tile fixer should know this...

Now the biggest issue is getting a fixer to do a repair on your floor and give a guarantee that it will be fine , because i know i wouldn't...

Personally i think you need to see who is going to cough up for this costly mistake...

Let us know how this pans out please...

[Sir Ramic]

Dave just to clarify , (message 5 in this thread)

"The screed was laid in Feb. Cracks noticed about July. The heating only tested late August."

[Dave]

Dave just to clarify , (message 5 in this thread)

"The screed was laid in Feb. Cracks noticed about July. The heating only tested late August."

I seen that neale.....and sometimes new screeds do get small cracks ..the sun blasting through the doors would cause expansion and this could be why the screed cracked...

But this doesn't take away the fact that the tile fixer should have known how to accomadate for this...

The thing is now is that they are going to pass the buck to one another...

[Sir Ramic]

Totally agreed Dave, i still cant understand why he didnt use Ditra or Dural. Still cant believe he hasnt heard of it and neither has the other tilers that have been contacted.

[Dave]

Just to add jaycee.......please have a read of this thread... http://www.tilersforums.co.uk/tiling...ing-shift.html

a lot of it might be over your head but it will give you some ammunition for when you confront these tradesmen...

And good luck from tilersforums.....

[jaycee1]

Wow thankyou it is very good of you to share your knowledge. I've had a look at the linked site and as you say a lot over my head but I get the jist of it. I think I will pass it onto the tiler, I am amazed that he went ahead. I feel a bit stupid really allowing the tiling to be done but when you are paying professionals you do tend to accept their advice. I will let you know the outcome but yes I think a battle is about to commence.

[Dave]

Good luck and we will wait to hear from you....

[jaycee1]

Quick update, I do appreciate all the advice given. Everybody trying to pass the buck as expected. The builder has filled the cracks in the screed with epoxy resin and we have been advised to use Bal flex for the retiling. Just found another cracked tile and sounds like a few tiles have blown as well. ( is that when they sound hollow when tapping them?) Tiler says that will be because there are underfloor heating pipes below them. Hmmm!

[Oli]

Tiler says that will be because there are underfloor heating pipes below them. Hmmm!

Did he use drainpipes

Sounds like more excuses to me, dont let them fob you off with excuses and technical mumbo jumbo if in doubt get someone in to give you an independant report and make sure your remedial work is done properly.

[jaycee1]

LOL Thanks, you are right. I think we will have to go down that route there are too many issues.

[jaycee1]

Update on this one, still ongoing and Im tearing my hair out. Gaps in screed filled with epoxy resin and havn't reopened even with heating going on and off. We noticed more cracks in the grout appearing and at least 10 of the tiles "blown". Tiler requested advice of adhesive rep. One of the blown tiles was removed and analysis established adhesive had only 60% contact with the tile and that the grout used was not flexible despite tiler telling the rep it was!!!! Tiler trying to say there is massive movement in the floor and it is that causing the grout to crack and the tiles to lift. He is also now trying to suggest that there was contamination to the back of the tiles and that has prevented some lack of contact with the adhesive.
These tiles were fully boxed and it was the tiler that removed them from that box! We did wonder at one point that the screed depth may have been too shallow but the screed rep has visited and assured me that using tru screed depths of 60 -65 mls are adequate. I paid this tiler £1580 for an area of approx 38 sq metres.