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View Poll Results: Movement & Expansion Joints ?
I use them 26 86.67%
I don't use them 2 6.67%
I Don't understand them/or how to use them 2 6.67%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 28-09-2008   #1
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Default Movement & Expansion Joints

Many suspected adhesive failure calls I visit, leave out vital expansion or movement joints where they are required. Where a customers concrete base extension meets the suspended timber floor of the original house, and vast meterage of flooring on top of UFH. There are a few ways in which these stresses can be relieved from the flooring, enabling the tiles to move freely without either [B]'tenting'[/B] or cracking across the point of movement. Please state wether you do or dont use expansion joints, and which type you use and why.....Gaz

[B]Tenting[/B] as a result of expansion stress
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Old 28-09-2008   #2
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

I have never had a floor large enough to require intermediate expansion joints yet but I do leave an expansion joint round the perimeter and use silicone as the medium.

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Old 28-09-2008   #3
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

This is getting quite a regular problem ...At the moment we are hearing more and more of these failures as gaz knows i passed one onto him just yesterday where a £3000 job has failed ....

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Old 28-09-2008   #4
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

[quote=Dave;127267]This is getting quite a regular problem ...At the moment we are hearing more and more of these failures as gaz knows i passed one onto him just yesterday where a £3000 job has failed ....[/quote]Hence my poll & bringing this subject up Dave, I think we should focus on this problem a little more on the forum...:yes:

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Old 28-09-2008   #5
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

Totally agree gaz......

This makes a good read and hopefully will help fixers etc more clued up...> HERE <

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Old 28-09-2008   #6
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

I have recently have 800m2 fail.the expansion joints placed every 5 lm..25 m2 grids.the problem seem to be residual movement caused by existing construction joints affected by rising damp.it is important to install expansions even if a cut tile has to be incorporated in the tiling mirroring the joint in the slab etc

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Old 28-09-2008   #7
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

[quote=andersontiling;127289]I have recently have 800m2 fail.the expansion joints placed every 5 lm..25 m2 grids.the problem seem to be residual movement caused by existing construction joints affected by rising damp.[B]it is important to install expansions even if a cut tile has to be incorporated in the tiling mirroring the joint in the slab etc[/B]

jon[/quote]Good point jon, if expansion is already incorporated in the substrate, it needs to be transferred through to the surface tiles...pointless having it expand underneath but not on top......Gaz

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Old 28-09-2008   #8
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

[quote=andersontiling;127289]I have recently have 800m2 fail.the expansion joints placed every 5 lm..25 m2 grids.the problem seem to be residual movement caused by existing construction joints affected by rising damp.it is important to install expansions even if a cut tile has to be incorporated in the tiling mirroring the joint in the slab etc

jon[/quote]

very important point there jon
i,m surprised it wasn't on the drawings or architects specifications
newbys take note!!!!
 
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Old 28-09-2008   #9
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints




PIC OF EXPANSION JOINT WHERE SO MUCH MOVEMENT HAS OCCURED THAT IT HAS PUSHED THE NEOPRENE INSERT OUT OF THE JOINT
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Old 28-09-2008   #10
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

Wrong joint used then..imo....joints come in varying widths allowing for more expansion in the substrate....

Differing types can be found here.... Movement Joints, Expansion Joints And Control Joint Profiles - Schlüter-Systems

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Old 28-09-2008   #11
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

Im doing alot of new sunrooms coming out of large kitchen diner areas. The new sunrooms have a new screeded floor and i always try and persuade the client to let me put an expansion joint in along the join as i tile the whole thing.
Some say no way it will ruin the look, i point out that cracked grout or worse in a few years will be alot worse!!
Most are happy as long as they are not too visible. I run into problems where they are having a pattern put down and use grey silicone like grumps.
I use from the schluter range, not cheep but good stuff.

Dave Gibson
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Old 28-09-2008   #12
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Default Re: Movement & Expansion Joints

Along with this....very useful info...

Where Should Movement Joints Be Fitted?

The theory is to create "tile fields" large enough to absorb differential movement between the substrate and the ceramic or stone covering -- movement joints must be installed in certain areas and positions to prevent tiles or grout from cracking...and in some cases prevent the tiles from tenting and becoming debonded from the substrate. But the exact positioning of movement joints is vital to them successfully protecting the installation. If they're installed in the wrong place they won't work.
Industry guidelines suggest that the maximum tile field should be no more than ten metres in each direction - but in practice, depending on the individual applications, it tends to be between five and eight metres.
British Standards (BSI) 5385 covers the requirements and methods for movement joint applications. Part 3: 1989-Section 3 - 19.1.1 states that the building designer should assess the magnitude of any stresses and decide where movement joints should be located, having regard to all relevant factors, including the type of flooring, bed and substrate.
While the floor areas to be tiled come in all shapes and sizes there is a general formula for working out where movement joints should be placed.
A circle provides the best configuration for movement joints, because the forces from the centre are equal in each direction. However, in practice, because hardly any floors are circular, it is best to look at square floors and rectangular floors. In a square configuration the ideal field size is where the ratio of the shortest to the longest distance from the centre of the force is approximately 1:1.5 (see figure 1) -- for example 5 x 7.5 metres. Generally, the tile "field" should be kept as square as possible, and where underfloor heating is present, the tile field should not exceed 40 square-metres.



However, most floors tend to be rectangular, rather than square, though. And rectangular shapes tend not to be the best configuration, as the ratio of the shortest to the longest distances exceeds 1:1.5. In the example shown in figure 2 the crack risk is at the centre of the area. If no movement joint has been installed, cracking of the tiled surface is highly likely. In large floors it is advisable to incorporate movement joints forming bays at no more than 30-metre intervals. Each bay is then sub-divided into smaller bays by stress relieving joints not greater than ten metres apart.
On suspended floors, stress-relieving joints should be inserted where flexing is likely to occur...for instance, over supporting walls or beams. And, as always, joints must be situated directly over any joints in the substrate, and at any changes in the substrate, such as timber to screed.
For areas less than two metres wide perimeter joints are not normally required, unless conditions generate stresses which are likely to become extreme, for example temperature changes.


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