Help!: Help please!!!

[BEX]

Hi just paid £3k for a new floor - had underfloor heating laid with some on concrete floor, some on chipboard!! The concrete floor fine - the porcelain tiles laid on the chipboard in the kitchen/utility/dining area 34sqM the grout has cracked lifted and moves when you walk on it - the tiler came back and regrouted but now it's worse than ever - HELP

[Dave]

Hi BEX......

1 :what did the tiler do preperation wise on the chipboard...? and is this section of the floor a floating floor.

2 : was an expansion joint used between the 2 differing substrates.?

3 : What adhesives and grouts did he use...

look forward to your replies.....

[BEX]

Don't think he did anything to prepare the chipboard floor - the adhesive used was 2 part flexible - the whole area rolls into one - kitchen, utility, dining and conservatory - the concrete floor in the conservatory - don't think anything was used to link one into other - just tiled straight through!!! It's a nightmare!!!

[Dave]

Is your chipboard floor onto joists..?....what is under the chipboard..

Did he overlay the chipboard with anything..?

[Highlander]

Also is your house a new build?

Highlander

[MICK the Tiler]

Floor failure on the chipboard by the sounds of things, sounds like there is only one way to fix it, but it aint what you want to hear.

Any Pics?

[BEX]

The chipboard in on joists - the devi heating was put down - then the tile adhesive and porcealin tiles! Nothing was used to overlay - when he originally came to quote he said may have to reboard the floor - but then decided not to as there wasn't too much movement - in his opinion! We are just normal people who know nothing about floors/tiles etc - just put trust in tradesmen!

[BEX]

Around 8 yrs old !

[BEX]

What's floor failure on chipboard - i'm a woman with no idea!!!

[Dave]

Hi again BEX sorry for all the questions..we just want to help......when you say 2 part adhesive...any ideas of the brand....i think this is deffo a deflection problem with the chipboard or incorrect products and prep work...plus he should have used an expansion joint between the 2 floors....especially with ufh..

[MICK the Tiler]

What's floor failure on chipboard - i'm a woman with no idea!!!

The floor has failed due to excess movement in the chipboard and also due to the different expansion and contraction of the two different substrates (Concrete and chipboard) no expansion joints. Maybe only one possible solution without seeing the job and that's to rip it all up and start again.

[BEX]

I'm sure it was Bal!

[Dave]

So it would have been fastflex....if BAL products have been used BEX then we can sort you out with a BAL product support technician who will come and see what has caused the failure.....

Please pm with your details etc and i will pass them onto a bal pst for asap...

[MICK the Tiler]

It would be the chipboard that has failed. When one tiles onto chipboard the excess moisture in the adhesive will swell the wood fibers in the chipboard and lift them slightly then when everything dries out you end up with tiny air voids within the chipboard floor. And once you start walking on it over time the fibers compress and flex causing the tiles to POP! off the floor. If you get the tiler back to lift a tile and there is chipboard fibers on the back of the tile the adhesive has not failed the substrate has. This is still the tilers fault because he did not overlay the floor with the correct board, And allow for expansion.

[Dave]

cheers becky....i removed your number..you never know who might get hold of it.....i will pass this on to BAl guys for you....

good luck...i think it is the tilers prep or lack of it but lets see if we can get you sorted....

[BEX]

Thanks very much - I was a bit worried about my number!!! Thanks again - we live in hope - just fed up with whole situation now!

[GazTech]

Hi Becky,
Dave has given me your number, I will phone you now for a chat about your situation, and see if we can help....Gaz

[BEX]

Help again!! Had my kitchen floor tiled, all come loose and move! 34sq m of floor - all open plan - part concrete in conservatory, the rest chipboard floor. Tiler regrouted because thought would fix problem. Now had visit from adhesive company who confirmed that floor boards were wet underneath causing the adhesive not to stick to the floor. The tiler wants to take up the whole floor and I am concerned about the state of the boards underneath - should it be ok if he seals the boards before tiling? or should it be reboarded? we have underfloor heating too - very expensive. He wants to take up the kitchen, where tiled on boards not the conservatory - which is on concrete - i am worried it won't look right and go wrong again!

[GazTech]

Which adhesive company came to the conclusion the chipboard was wet, and why was it wet ?

[Fred]

Sounds like a nightmare.

[BEX]

Palace Chemicals Ltd, Dale Jeffries. He took up a tile and said that the chipboard underneath was damp - caused by the adhesive because the floor was not coated with sealant before fixed. The moisture in the adhesive caused the floor to get wet and not stick to the floor. All the adhesive was stuck to the back of the tile!!!

[GazTech]

Palace Chemicals Ltd, Dale Jeffries. He took up a tile and said that the chipboard underneath was damp - caused by the adhesive because the floor was not coated with sealant before fixed. The moisture in the adhesive caused the floor to get wet and not stick to the floor. All the adhesive was stuck to the back of the tile!!!

If your tiler removes the tiles, this will allow the damp chipboard to dry b4 tiling again....I'm not sure how this Palace 2 part flex would make the chipboard wet enough to stop the tiles from sticking. Our alternative, Fastflex which you originaly thought was used needs no primer onto chipboard.

[BEX]

It was called single part rubber crumb I think!!! Not at all happy as you can imagine - I thought he had used the best product when in fact he had used a cheaper alternative and it's gone wrong - I wonder whether the underfloor heating is a contributory factor in the wetness! I am not sure I trust what he says he is going to do next or whether I should seek another opinion!

[GazTech]

The heating system would not influence anything at all BEX, as it would, or should not have been comissioned until 2 weeks after tiling was complete, and then raised by 5 degrees a day till max and 5 degrees till off to accustom the adhesive and grout to the temperature changes....

[BEX]

Yes we did all that properly - didn't turn the heating on for 2 weeks and gradually raised the temperature. He said now that he is going to rip up all the kitchen tiles with the exception of the conservatory and MAY board over with some concrete boards 6mm (whatever they are) or he may just seal the floor and relay it! Not sure which would be best! Also, whether we should insist he takes all up including the conservatory.

[Dave]

Another reason why I say you should not tile directly to chipboard.....not matter what any adhesive company tells you it shouldn't be done....and if it dose fail then this is what happens..an excuse that leaves the adhesive company blame free........

[BEX]

Thanks Dave - just what I wanted to know!! The trouble is we don't know anything - totally reliant on the 'professionals' or not in this case! _ _ I really am doing this!

[GazTech]

Another reason why I say you should not tile directly to chipboard.....not matter what any adhesive company tells you it shouldn't be done....and if it dose fail then this is what happens..an excuse that leaves the adhesive company blame free........

We at BAL will offer a 25 year guarantee with fastflex onto chipboard ...if...and only if it is prepared and fixed according to our specifications to the letter.....

[Dave]

BEX I really do feel for your complaint and this is a common problem we are hearing of more often...especially tiling to mixed substrates and incorrect prep work....

I think you need to sit down with your fixer and get him to admit his mistakes and try to solve it...