Travertine dilemma

[justinisaac]

Hello all - need some advice. My latest client has bought a load of 600 x 400 x 12 travertine tiles from t'internet with a view to laying them throughout his his house. My concern is that he wants underfloor heating with insulation boards underneath and I am worried that the tiles will crack. If they were going straight onto the screed I wouldn't be too bothered but I've seen what can happen with travertine. He has bought a load of addy which was cheap too - it's Turkish and I haven't heard of it. Tried to get him to use decent stuff but as usual they can't see past the £ signs. The tiles are filled and honed on the face, pitted on the back. I put about 12 on a wall in his bathroom a few weeks ago and I filled all the voids on the back with adhesive before trowelling them up with my half inch notched trowel but I'm not sure the same approach would be suitable on the floor, given how soft they can be. I picked one up to cut it and it broke in two in my hand!

Any thoughts would be much appreciated

Justin

[Sir Ramic]

You will want to be using a single part flexible white adhesive , you should be sure what adhesive he has supplied. Flexible grout too.
Also i would opt for Ditra or Dural CI matting before laying a tile.

[Grace'sDad]

Agreed - definitely use an uncoupling membrane - these type of travertine tiles are more holes than stone. They can break under their own weight - this can be even worse when they are wet.

White SPF is best - good solid bed.

I would only use a customer's own adhesive if they signed a disclaimer waiving any failure.

[pjtiler]

Hello all - need some advice. My latest client has bought a load of 600 x 400 x 12 travertine tiles from t'internet with a view to laying them throughout his his house. My concern is that he wants underfloor heating with insulation boards underneath and I am worried that the tiles will crack. If they were going straight onto the screed I wouldn't be too bothered but I've seen what can happen with travertine. He has bought a load of addy which was cheap too - it's Turkish and I haven't heard of it. Tried to get him to use decent stuff but as usual they can't see past the £ signs. The tiles are filled and honed on the face, pitted on the back. I put about 12 on a wall in his bathroom a few weeks ago and I filled all the voids on the back with adhesive before trowelling them up with my half inch notched trowel but I'm not sure the same approach would be suitable on the floor, given how soft they can be. I picked one up to cut it and it broke in two in my hand!

Any thoughts would be much appreciated

Justin

aye
walk away

[stev1904]

20mm 100% flexi-beds solid ,but mind he step .

[Alberta Stone]

Check for deflection.
Definitely use ditra mat.
Void your warranty for the thinset if he is insistent on using it and word that waiver properly.

[Branty]

If he is supplying the addy. Tell him it needs to be flexi, If he can not guarantee its flexi, then walk away, it will crack. If he can prove it is flexi, (Turkish-English dictionary), then tile away. Oh it must be white though, and you'll need to back butter the tiles.
Best thing would be to supply your own.

Esnek Polimeridir Değiştirdi. Flexible Polymer Modified

[wetdec]

If your working on a screed is there no insulation in it ??

Overlay with Durabase CI then use a flexi, take his adhesive away use it on another job and provide whats needed.........charge him the difference.

Whats the adhesive he has called you know chances are it will have the EN standard on the bag m8.


tiler

[andy-p]

aye
walk away

i'll second that , the minute people start trying to cut corners and penny pinch on fixing stone like that ,alarm bells should be going off in your head ,and its time to joe the toff...

[GazTech]

Agreed - definitely use an uncoupling membrane - these type of travertine tiles are more holes than stone. They can break under their own weight - this can be even worse when they are wet.

White SPF is best - good solid bed.

I would only use a customer's own adhesive if they signed a disclaimer waiving any failure.

By having the customer sign a disclaimer, this will prove (maybe in court), that you knew it wasn't the correct procedure for this application, but you still elected to do it. If a large format tile falls off the wall after you fitted it onto a weak wall, disclaimer or not, the responsability is down to you. The disclaimer in fact proves that you expected it to fail.....Gaz

[Grace'sDad]

By having the customer sign a disclaimer, this will prove (maybe in court), that you knew it wasn't the correct procedure for this application, but you still elected to do it. If a large format tile falls off the wall after you fitted it onto a weak wall, disclaimer or not, the responsability is down to you. The disclaimer in fact proves that you expected it to fail.....Gaz

And that fact you so rightly pointed out really gets my goat - so much that I am fast running out of goats.

We want the work, some of us are now feeling the pinch with quiet phones etc so we try and strike a balance rather than simply turn work away if the customer won't sing our tune - of course there are idiots out there who will do the job (for cash - no taxes) and use any old addy - probably dot n dab too for good measure. Yet if you do end up in court, your own cautious, professional approach could be used against you!

[Alberta Stone]

Then by that same logic, when you go to a bungie jump outfit, they make you sign a waiver to use their gear, yet when a cord breaks and the person does a face plant on the dirt and things get to court, the lawyers do not say look see the waiver, they expected it to break so they are now liable.

(no warranties expressed or implied)
(client specified thinset)

I like wetdecs idea, use the right gear on the wall that you can warranty and use his on the floor if you deem it suitable.
If you think it is questionable then you need to get into it with the customer and explain the potential troubles he is in for if the product is crap and let him know that he will be liable for the costs of any repairs as he is specifying the mortar.

I am not up on UK legal matters so it would be good to take one of those solicitors/lawyers up on their first consult is free deals. (they do that there do they not? Here they do.)

[Daveyboy]

Blimey Justin, that's not a job I'd be keen to take on. I bet the client will be the first to complain about your tiling when it all starts breaking up...I doubt he will say "it's my fault because I insisted on cutting corners"... protect your reputation cos without it, business gets very quiet...

[dangerSteve]

You will want to be using a single part flexible white adhesive , you should be sure what adhesive he has supplied. Flexible grout too.
Also i would opt for Ditra or Dural CI matting before laying a tile.

I wouldnt use Ditra with underfloor heating, traps moisture (apparently).

[Dave]

I wouldnt use Ditra with underfloor heating, traps moisture (apparently).

I think you need to read up on Ditra mate........



Schlüter-DITRA - Schlüter-Systems

[whitebeam]

I wouldnt use Ditra with underfloor heating, traps moisture (apparently).

Lay ufh self level then put ditra on top, Thats what schluter recomends

[grumpygrouter]

I wouldnt use Ditra with underfloor heating, traps moisture (apparently).

One of the features of ditra is that it will allow a new screed to "breath" allowing you to tile much earlier than otherwise, it lets moisture out, not trap it.

[dangerSteve]

Lay ufh self level then put ditra on top, Thats what schluter recomends

I know mate... done my research! I've been told this by the customer Im working for at the mo (a builder) after I suggested using Ditra ontop of a UFH system for a travertine floor. Customer came back just the other day actually and he'd been to the local tile shop where some shop assistant told him not to use it and went on to give me the 3rd degree about it it traping moisture and some nonesense. God knows.. I just threw in the towel and did it his way.

[whitebeam]

I know mate... done my research! I've been told this by the customer Im working for at the mo (a builder) after I suggested using Ditra ontop of a UFH system for a travertine floor. Customer came back just the other day actually and he'd been to the local tile shop where some shop assistant told him not to use it and went on to give me the 3rd degree about it it traping moisture and some nonesense. God knows.. I just threw in the towel and did it his way.

Hope you don't get a failure your number will be the first one to call.

They should have taken your advise you being the tiler, What is it with shop asistants and customers

[grumpygrouter]

If it was me DangerSteve, I would be on the Schluter site printing off the Ditra information and thrusting it under your customers nose.

[dangerSteve]

Hope you don't get a failure your number will be the first one to call.

They should have taken your advise you being the tiler, What is it with shop asistants and customers

Well I did tell him it was a bad idea and that I cant be responsible for any failure because he has totally gone against everything ive suggested, to which he agreed and said.. " It'll be right mate, this floor is solid" (whlie jumping up and down like a plonk)

[dangerSteve]

If it was me DangerSteve, I would be on the Schluter site printing off the Ditra information and thrusting it under your customers nose.

I'll save that Grumpy for the ' I told you so moment' lol

[justinisaac]

Many thanks to everyone for your comments - they're very helpful. I didn't mean to give the impression that my client is being awkward - to be fair he wanted to use porcelain on the floor, but his wife was insistent on travertine so here we are! I wish I could remember the name of the addy but I'm not due back there for a couple of weeks. I'll post it on here when I find out.

My main concern is the insulation boards. As I understand it they are 900 x 600 x 8/9 mm thick and the client's arguement is that they don't want to lose heat through the screed ( it's a concrete plank floor under that), but I just don't see it working with the trav. You'd have a sandwich of (from the bottom up) insulation, ufh, dittra matting and finally travertine. Has anyone else done something like this? I don't want to say no to them because I've had a lot of work off them in the past, but I would be a lot happier if I knew someone had done the same detail and had no problems!

Many thanks again guys
Justin

[grumpygrouter]

Many thanks to everyone for your comments - they're very helpful. I didn't mean to give the impression that my client is being awkward - to be fair he wanted to use porcelain on the floor, but his wife was insistent on travertine so here we are! I wish I could remember the name of the addy but I'm not due back there for a couple of weeks. I'll post it on here when I find out.

My main concern is the insulation boards. As I understand it they are 900 x 600 x 8/9 mm thick and the client's arguement is that they don't want to lose heat through the screed ( it's a concrete plank floor under that), but I just don't see it working with the trav. You'd have a sandwich of (from the bottom up) insulation, ufh, dittra matting and finally travertine. Has anyone else done something like this? I don't want to say no to them because I've had a lot of work off them in the past, but I would be a lot happier if I knew someone had done the same detail and had no problems!

Many thanks again guys
Justin

That is absolutely fine Justin. The insulation board ensures all (99%) of the heat is projected upwards through your adhesive to the tiles. It is vital in my opinion to have a decoupling mat between the heat and the Trav. You will not lose heat because of it.