Help Me Pro-opinion sought on job gone wrong - TilersForums.co.uk | Tile Forums

Figueral · 09-08-2008

I have recently spent a lot of money on having a new bathroom fitted and tiled. Most of it looks fine, but there has started to be a big problem with the floor near the radiator. The installer has been back once already but the problem is getting worse and I am wondering what is going on.

Holes had to be drilled in two tiles for the pipes of a towel-heating radiator (fixed to the wall) that go underneath the concrete floor and then come up through it. Grout was used to fill in the holes round the pipes. This was fine for about a month, then in one tile, I noticed three hairline cracks appeared spreading from the hole outwards. The tiler replaced this and it looked fine. However, two days later the cracks re-appeared in the new tile, and then the tile round the other pipe did the same.

The installer is going to come back and fix both, but since asking him, I have been away on holiday for 10 days and now I have come back the situation is alarmingly worse. The cracking is now severe, with splintering also occurring and parts of the tile pushed up. Worse than that, other tiles all around the two tiles affected are now being pushed up too, with the grouting disintegrating.

I had previously thought that all of this was due to the expansion of the radiator pipes, when heating up, putting pressure on the tiles. However, the odd thing is that while on holiday I turned all the heating and hot water off at the main switch, so there was no possibility of the underfloor pipes heating up in this period.

I don't doubt that the installer is going to come back and attend to this, as I am on good terms so far and in fact I have not yet paid in full, but clearly there's not point unless it is known what is going on here, and I would like to get some kind of insightsible. Apart from anything, I am not keen on the radiator being continually taken off and re-fitted, as I am sure this will make it prone to leaking.

Spirit · 09-08-2008

With my plumbing hat on, I would be worried about the pipes under the floor. Who fitted them, how old are they and how have they been fitted. Cement attacks copper, so if the pipes have been buried in the concrete, you may have a leak, forcing the tiles up.

Could you post some pictures of the damaged area?

**David - Tradetiler** · 09-08-2008

Under normal circumstances it takes years for the cement to eat through copper. It does sound like water is making something expand. Concrete is more or less the same size wet or dry. Is there any wood under the tiles at all (boxing/ducting etc) or anything else under the tiles that is not concrete/cement based?

Perhaps the surrounding floor is sinking and the pipe area is solid. Some buckling is occurring.

Spirit · 09-08-2008

That is why I asked about the age of the copper.

**whitebeam** · 09-08-2008

Could it the expansion of the pipes when hot, If they have no room to expand under the floor and around the tile area cracking will accure. Most plumbers I,ve worked for have put insulation around the pipes if covered in cement or concrete to allow for expansion

Figueral · 09-08-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit

With my plumbing hat on, I would be worried about the pipes under the floor. Who fitted them, how old are they and how have they been fitted. Cement attacks copper, so if the pipes have been buried in the concrete, you may have a leak, forcing the tiles up.
Could you post some pictures of the damaged area?

The idea that the pipes are defective has not come up before. The pipes have been there for a long time (20 years maybe) but without any problem at all, underneath previous parquet flooring. There are similar pipes underneath the rest of the floor of this flat, similarly with no problem. It seems odd this would suddenly surface now.
I am posting some pictures of the area, but they are to hard to do well!
Is there any wood under the tiles at all (boxing/ducting etc) or anything else under the tiles that is not concrete/cement based? No.
Perhaps the surrounding floor is sinking and the pipe area is solid. Some buckling is occurring. Not that I can see. In fact no-one has walked on the area most damaged in the last 10 days.
Could it the expansion of the pipes when hot As I said previously, that's what i thought, but most damage has occurrred in the last 10 days when all heating/hot water has been off.

Spirit · 09-08-2008

Thanks for the pictures. It looks like the tile has lifted in the last one. The tile will have to come up anyway, so I suggest lifting it and having a look.

I replace plenty of pipes in concrete or screed floors that have taken 20 years to be eaten through, so could be a possibility.

Do you know what adhesives and grout were used?

TilingLogistics · 09-08-2008

I think it would be a good idea if you gave a more detailked explanation of how the floor was laid!

i.e. The exact substrate and how long it was down, The tiles and sizes, The adhesive and grout used. You said earlier on there was UFH involved so please provide an explanation of the process used. It may then be possible to get a better idea of the problem. Also it may help to state where you are located in the Country it may be there is someone available who is prepared to do a visit to you

Kev

**Dave** · 09-08-2008

This could be a simple case of the floor tiles are cut too tight to the walls....leaving no room for thermal or moisture expansion ....thus this can cause the tiles to TENT as they have in the pics...

To cause the tiles to tent like that in a short space of time then it is deffo expansion...IMO..

Figueral · 09-08-2008

Thanks for opinions. The tiles are on a concrete floor maybe 20 years old which seemed perfectly solid, tiles are 305mm sq porcelain floor-tiles, Mapei grout. There is no UFH, just two radiator pipes going to a radiator. I can't give information about adhesive and or any more about tiling process etc since as stated I'm a customer not the installer/tiler, and I was just trying to get a 2nd opinion of what might be going wrong before the installer/tiler comes back.

From what the last few replies seem to be pointing at, it sounds like there are question-marks about how the job has been done, which is probably what i need to know, in the absence of a leak underneath.

Spirit · 09-08-2008

Had another look at the photos. Hard to be sure of what is causing the cracks from them, could you take a few more showing a wider view and close-ups if possible.

How does the floor sound when tapped? Is it hollow all over or just where the tiles have cracked, or not at all?

Have any of the pieces come loose so that you can lift them out and look underneath?

Figueral · 09-08-2008

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spirit

Had another look at the photos. Hard to be sure of what is causing the cracks from them, could you take a few more showing a wider view and close-ups if possible.
How does the floor sound when tapped? Is it hollow all over or just where the tiles have cracked, or not at all?
Have any of the pieces come loose so that you can lift them out and look underneath?

I've done my best with the photos. Yes, all the cracked or lifted tiles sound hollow, some more than others. I'm not quite sure if one of the tiles, in photo 3, has actually sunk rather than lifted, or maybe it sank a bit and the one next to it lifted a bit.
I'm sure the tiles will come away easily but I will hold off on that till its been looked at by the installer.