Discuss Pro-opinion sought on job gone wrong in the Tiling Forum at TilersForums; I have recently spent a lot of money on having a new bathroom fitted and tiled. Most of it looks fine, but there has started to be a big problem ...
I have recently spent a lot of money on having a new bathroom fitted and tiled. Most of it looks fine, but there has started to be a big problem with the floor near the radiator. The installer has been back once already but the problem is getting worse and I am wondering what is going on.
Holes had to be drilled in two tiles for the pipes of a towel-heating radiator (fixed to the wall) that go underneath the concrete floor and then come up through it. Grout was used to fill in the holes round the pipes. This was fine for about a month, then in one tile, I noticed three hairline cracks appeared spreading from the hole outwards. The tiler replaced this and it looked fine. However, two days later the cracks re-appeared in the new tile, and then the tile round the other pipe did the same.
The installer is going to come back and fix both, but since asking him, I have been away on holiday for 10 days and now I have come back the situation is alarmingly worse. The cracking is now severe, with splintering also occurring and parts of the tile pushed up. Worse than that, other tiles all around the two tiles affected are now being pushed up too, with the grouting disintegrating.
I had previously thought that all of this was due to the expansion of the radiator pipes, when heating up, putting pressure on the tiles. However, the odd thing is that while on holiday I turned all the heating and hot water off at the main switch, so there was no possibility of the underfloor pipes heating up in this period.
I don't doubt that the installer is going to come back and attend to this, as I am on good terms so far and in fact I have not yet paid in full, but clearly there's not point unless it is known what is going on here, and I would like to get some kind of insightsible. Apart from anything, I am not keen on the radiator being continually taken off and re-fitted, as I am sure this will make it prone to leaking.
Last edited by Figueral; 09-08-2008 at 10:50 AM.
Reason: paragraph clarity
With my plumbing hat on, I would be worried about the pipes under the floor. Who fitted them, how old are they and how have they been fitted. Cement attacks copper, so if the pipes have been buried in the concrete, you may have a leak, forcing the tiles up.
Under normal circumstances it takes years for the cement to eat through copper. It does sound like water is making something expand. Concrete is more or less the same size wet or dry. Is there any wood under the tiles at all (boxing/ducting etc) or anything else under the tiles that is not concrete/cement based?
Perhaps the surrounding floor is sinking and the pipe area is solid. Some buckling is occurring.
Last edited by David - Tradetiler; 09-08-2008 at 11:59 AM.
Reason: corrected spelling
Could it the expansion of the pipes when hot, If they have no room to expand under the floor and around the tile area cracking will accure. Most plumbers I,ve worked for have put insulation around the pipes if covered in cement or concrete to allow for expansion
With my plumbing hat on, I would be worried about the pipes under the floor. Who fitted them, how old are they and how have they been fitted. Cement attacks copper, so if the pipes have been buried in the concrete, you may have a leak, forcing the tiles up.
Could you post some pictures of the damaged area?
The idea that the pipes are defective has not come up before. The pipes have been there for a long time (20 years maybe) but without any problem at all, underneath previous parquet flooring. There are similar pipes underneath the rest of the floor of this flat, similarly with no problem. It seems odd this would suddenly surface now.
I am posting some pictures of the area, but they are to hard to do well! Is there any wood under the tiles at all (boxing/ducting etc) or anything else under the tiles that is not concrete/cement based? No. Perhaps the surrounding floor is sinking and the pipe area is solid. Some buckling is occurring. Not that I can see. In fact no-one has walked on the area most damaged in the last 10 days. Could it the expansion of the pipes when hot As I said previously, that's what i thought, but most damage has occurrred in the last 10 days when all heating/hot water has been off.
Thanks for the pictures. It looks like the tile has lifted in the last one. The tile will have to come up anyway, so I suggest lifting it and having a look.
I replace plenty of pipes in concrete or screed floors that have taken 20 years to be eaten through, so could be a possibility.
I think it would be a good idea if you gave a more detailked explanation of how the floor was laid!
i.e. The exact substrate and how long it was down, The tiles and sizes, The adhesive and grout used. You said earlier on there was UFH involved so please provide an explanation of the process used. It may then be possible to get a better idea of the problem. Also it may help to state where you are located in the Country it may be there is someone available who is prepared to do a visit to you
This could be a simple case of the floor tiles are cut too tight to the walls....leaving no room for thermal or moisture expansion ....thus this can cause the tiles to TENT as they have in the pics...
To cause the tiles to tent like that in a short space of time then it is deffo expansion...IMO..
Thanks for opinions. The tiles are on a concrete floor maybe 20 years old which seemed perfectly solid, tiles are 305mm sq porcelain floor-tiles, Mapei grout. There is no UFH, just two radiator pipes going to a radiator. I can't give information about adhesive and or any more about tiling process etc since as stated I'm a customer not the installer/tiler, and I was just trying to get a 2nd opinion of what might be going wrong before the installer/tiler comes back.
From what the last few replies seem to be pointing at, it sounds like there are question-marks about how the job has been done, which is probably what i need to know, in the absence of a leak underneath.
Last edited by Figueral; 09-08-2008 at 01:54 PM.
Reason: spelling
Had another look at the photos. Hard to be sure of what is causing the cracks from them, could you take a few more showing a wider view and close-ups if possible.
How does the floor sound when tapped? Is it hollow all over or just where the tiles have cracked, or not at all?
Have any of the pieces come loose so that you can lift them out and look underneath?
Had another look at the photos. Hard to be sure of what is causing the cracks from them, could you take a few more showing a wider view and close-ups if possible.
How does the floor sound when tapped? Is it hollow all over or just where the tiles have cracked, or not at all?
Have any of the pieces come loose so that you can lift them out and look underneath?
I've done my best with the photos. Yes, all the cracked or lifted tiles sound hollow, some more than others. I'm not quite sure if one of the tiles, in photo 3, has actually sunk rather than lifted, or maybe it sank a bit and the one next to it lifted a bit.
I'm sure the tiles will come away easily but I will hold off on that till its been looked at by the installer.
I'm no expert but it seems a bit of a coincidence that this problem is just round the radiator pipes and surrounding tiles.So could it not be just as simple as Dave say and not enough room for expansion when hot.
I know the poster says he was away for 10days and heating was off but could the sun heating up the house(thats if it was sunny and warm) not cause the tiles to expand as well causing the same problem.
Thanks for the extra pics. The last one was very interesting, looks like the tile has lifted up. This would suggest a problem underneath, either a leak or a pipe lifting because of expansion.
Did you check the whole floor to see if it is hollow anywhere else?
If your tiler thinks that expansion around the pipes could be the problem, one solution could be to cut a larger hole than he has done, maybe 22-25mm, then not to fill it with grout, but to use a radiator pipe cover instead.
1) You said these were PORCELAIN tiles. (Not ceramic). Porcelain is VERY tough but under pressure it will shatter and split. But it does have to be a LOT of pressure so that's surprising.
2) Raditor pipes should be fairly stable and certainly shouldn't be causing tiles to crack under normal expansion and contraction.
Standard service pipes fitted through tiles (even when the expand and contract under normal use) would not be enough to crack / split or move heavy duty porcelain based tiles. (In my opinion / experience)
3) The holes drilled in porcelain shouldn't weaken the tile to any significant degree
So my gut feeling is that it is the base underneath that is unstable and either rising or falling.
4) Is the room upstairs? IF SO IT MAY BE SITTING ON A ROTTEN FLOOR JOIST
Even some rooms downstairs are on joists. I would be considering the joists as suspect.
Mmm I did read that bit but I was actually wondering if its a
Concrete SCREED
Or are we really in 6" of foundation concrete with wire mesh?
My gut feeling on this is that underneath are joists. With a cement based screed.
*BUT I MAY BE WRONG*
Thanks for useful information, and photos.
This is a basement flat, it is the solid foundations/ground beneath, and I have seen elsewhere in the bathroom, where the floor needed to be dug into for other purposes, that the floor is definitely solid (though I didn't see wire mesh). All this dates from the original flat conversion (of a Victorian property) around 20-25 years ago.
The tiles are described as "fine porcelain rectified monocaliber floor tiles" from a high-quality supplier. I did find an partially used bag of the adhesive used for the tile repair (though not sure if same as original); it's simply called fast set tile adhesive from Travis Perkins.
I have checked bathroom floor elsewhere and it does not sound hollow (though I'm not sure it did in the problem area prior to tiles lifting).
Other things I can think of: I don't know anything about tiling, being a customer only, but it did seem to to me the tiler was using quite a thickness of adhesive under the tiles to get a level surface throughout (just my opinion). I know that because, elsewhere on the floor, I accidentally stepped on one before it was set, and the tile sank down a lot with a large blob of adhesive coming out the sides (white creamy stuff. Of course, the tile was put right). The floor appeared to me rather pitted after the previous parquet/wood-block floor had been taken off. However, the tiling elsewhere in the room seems fine at the moment.
When the first cracked tile was replaced, the installer put some cement under the new tile, (maybe something to do with the thickness of previous adhesive?) but that didn't prevent it cracking again.
One question: in one of your photos, the rad pipe enters the wall through a kind of flange that makes it look much neater. I found chrome-effect pipe-collars on the net, would they do the job as well, and is that what you mean by rad pipe covers.
ive seen this before not in a bathroom but a whole houses in essex.
is the bathroom on a low or wet point of the land it sits on,could you have a burst storm drain.
even without these points the problem could still be the same and this is ground heave,pull up some carpets in adjacent rooms and see if there is any cracking,the floors will go before the walls.
Studying the pics closely, I am veering toward the "tenting" theory given by Dave. There seems to be very little in the way of expansion joints at the edge of the tile/wall junction.
We are currently working in a very large, posh house (not doing the tiling) which had been totally tiled in white granite on Ditra matting. The tilers had not left any gaps between the tiles and the walls, or any expansion joints. Every floor had blown and had to be ripped up.
None of the tiles had gone the way that yours have, I therefore think that tiles have either moved up or down. Either the floor is moving or the tiles have not been laid properly and are sinking.
You said that a tile moved when you stood on it. How long after it was laid did this happen?
If the tiler has had to bed the tiles up a lot around the area that is lifting then maybe the problem is with the adhesive shrinking,as 365 stated it takes a lot of pressure for porcelain to crack,if it has a lot of adhesive underneath (would have to be a fair bit)then that could cause the tile's to crack,due to shrinkage.
Check the depth of the adhesive around the area ,and see.
You mentioned where the floor needed to be dug into for other purposes, Could it be a problem of movement from there, If you could elaborate on that a little bit more.
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Originally Posted by Spirit 
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