Dot & Dab travertine?

[bj F]

Any news on how it is going spanky have you found a fixer yet and is the contractor seeing things differently now?

[borgie]

this is better than Cora. , Emmerdale and E'enders! Have to say i'm with pytiler on this 1. Good luck spanky!

[andy-p]

Originally Posted by MICK the Tiler

All good valid points made for NOT using dot and dab technique Water penatration , differences in air pressure behind tiles all sound and time proven. Another point against D&D is you can get a case of what we call down here MIRROR TRANSFER I'm not sure if it has been mentioned my batteries on the laptop will run flat wadding through 20 pages of posts. What MIRROR TRANSFER does is it will draw the pattern created by the dots and dabs and reflect this through to the front of the tile causing light and dark shading where the D&D are especially servere on stone products but it can and will happen on ceramics and porcelain. You need to comb the wall and also comb the stone as well to create an even solid bed of adhesive wich will be solid across the entire back of the tile.

I still wet bed down here on certain jobs so 3000 odd years of simple techniques are still used today and it will out last any modern adhesive by many many years. Tell a adhesive sales rep that and watch him counter punch with all the techno mumbo jumbo.

you still wettin the bed mick?? have you tried incontinence pants buddy ??

[felix]

I have read through all 21 pages of this thread for the first time and I am horrified at the dilemma Spanky has found himself in. I have only been tiling for 18 months, and I have nothing more to add than what has already been said. When I was learning I was told categorially never to dot and dab. I now know that there are times where it is acceptable and indeed sometimes necessary. The bottom line appears to be that regardless of the method you use it is important that there is good coverage on the correct substrate. I would like to thank the other posters for their contributions because I have learned quite a bit from reading it.

I was recently called by a woman who had floor tiles cracking in her kitchen. When I looked they were travertine and they had been spot fixed. They were fixed down well but the lack of coverage had caused them to crack

Originally Posted by felix

I have read through all 21 pages of this thread for the first time and I am horrified at the dilemma Spanky has found himself in. I have only been tiling for 18 months, and I have nothing more to add than what has already been said. When I was learning I was told categorially never to dot and dab. I now know that there are times where it is acceptable and indeed sometimes necessary. The bottom line appears to be that regardless of the method you use it is important that there is good coverage on the correct substrate. I would like to thank the other posters for their contributions because I have learned quite a bit from reading it.

I was recently called by a woman who had floor tiles cracking in her kitchen. When I looked they were travertine and they had been spot fixed. They were fixed down well but the lack of coverage had caused them to crack

you wait till the movie comes out
(Bruce Willis is going to play me )

[Spirit]

Are you that old?!!

Originally Posted by Spirit

Are you that old?!!

yep

[deanotile]

Originally Posted by garythetiler

i have just spent 15 minutes reading the posts about this subject and i have to agree with grumpy on this ,if done correctly dot and dabbing tiles is a good method of fixing tiles but i stress most clearly you must know what you are doing .bs 5385 covers the installation of floor and wall tiles and specifies best practice for the installation of the tiles and the reason why adhesive manufactures dont recommend dot and dabbing is most adhesives arent recommended to be used more than 12mm thick. lets be clear adhesive has only been around for 30-40 years before that every tile was fitted using sand and cement mortar beds if any one has ever tried to remove a tile fitted this way you will know that its the best way of fitting tiles due to the 100% coverage and the unbeleivble bond strength of the mortar no additives just opc and sand .if done correctly and you achieve 100% coverage dot and dabbing and you slide you tiles to open the adhesive and dont bed out more than 11mm you will achieve the same results from the adhesive as combing it on with a serrated trowel more importantly i would be more concerned on how the adhesive was mixed than how it was applied ,adhesive must be mechanically mixed with a drill and whisk, the walls must be sound and free of friable material and the adhesive must be applied to the wall with a trowel .the problem is the tiler you have just put a few dots on has not got the coverage required and didnt trowel it on to the wall and you have an un safe installation this wont help clearing up this post ,i just thought that grumpy has been unfairly treated and good luck to him for having experience and not just reading technical books and spouting bs, british standards that is lol

Sorry to drag up old posts but I’ve only just spotted it (excuse the pun) I’m sorry you think I gave grumpy a hard time but when a man say’s tings like (From the photo you posted it looks like there is at least 75% coverage on the tile and that’s good enough.) Incorrect and (Spanky I can tell you now before you get into a huge wrangle with this tiler, if you end up in court on the issue of dabbing tiles you will without a shadow of doubt loose the case.) Incorrect in my opinion he deserved the reception he got.
Just as a mater of fact I didn’t get all my knowledge from books and reading the standards. Although it is true I do read the technical information and I do try to keep up with the British standards but I have don a couple of kitchen splash backs as well.

[grumpy]

the time of a post often reflects it qaulity and validity!

[garythetiler]

Originally Posted by deanotile

Sorry to drag up old posts but I’ve only just spotted it (excuse the pun) I’m sorry you think I gave grumpy a hard time but when a man say’s tings like (From the photo you posted it looks like there is at least 75% coverage on the tile and that’s good enough.) Incorrect and (Spanky I can tell you now before you get into a huge wrangle with this tiler, if you end up in court on the issue of dabbing tiles you will without a shadow of doubt loose the case.) Incorrect in my opinion he deserved the reception he got.
Just as a mater of fact I didn’t get all my knowledge from books and reading the standards. Although it is true I do read the technical information and I do try to keep up with the British standards but I have don a couple of kitchen splash backs as well.

well you obviously have strong opinions on this dean do you agree with any of the information on my post if you are keeping up with british standards and try to stay within their guidelines how did this effect you when the first uncoupling membranes were developed? they didnt meet any of the british standard guide lines that were in at that time when adhesive was first manufactured that didnt have an installation guide line at that time either, would you have waited 2 years before using them until 5385 was updated just because you are unfamilar with certain techniques dont dsicredit them and try not to take things too personally grumpy gave his professional opinion which i respect just the same way as i respect yours

[deanotile]

Originally Posted by garythetiler

well you obviously have strong opinions on this dean do you agree with any of the information on my post if you are keeping up with british standards and try to stay within their guidelines how did this effect you when the first uncoupling membranes were developed? they didnt meet any of the british standard guide lines that were in at that time when adhesive was first manufactured that didnt have an installation guide line at that time either, would you have waited 2 years before using them until 5385 was updated just because you are unfamilar with certain techniques dont dsicredit them and try not to take things too personally grumpy gave his professional opinion which i respect just the same way as i respect yours

I do think that there is merit in the method you are talking about but that is not dot and dab. I will concede that if you are achieving eighty percent coverage and you are within the adhesive manufacturers recommended bed depth and the weight limits for the sub-straight then it doesn’t really mater whether you apply the adhesive with a notched trowel or a gauging trowel. If you will concede that dot and dab is not an acceptable method of fixing tiles of any kind.

You obviously know your stuff and I have a lot of respect for tilers who do a good job but I have no respect for people who try to defend a job that is clearly sub-standard.

[andy-p]

Originally Posted by deanotile

I do think that there is merit in the method you are talking about but that is not dot and dab. dab is not an acceptable method of fixing tiles of any kind.
I will concede that if you are achieving eighty percent coverage and you are within the adhesive manufacturers recommended bed depth and the weight limits for the sub-straight then it doesn’t really mater whether you apply the adhesive with a notched trowel or a gauging trowel. If you will concede that dot and
You obviously know your stuff and I have a lot of respect for tilers who do a good job but I have no respect for people who try to defend a job that is clearly sub-standard.

up till now i have been keeping out of this debate but you have now hit the nail on the head deano!! lets get this straight dot babbing 4 big blobs on a tile is wrong, but gauging the back of the tile as you say is perfectly acceptable in the circumstances you have described.. when gauging stone you skim the back of the tile first so no shadows or voids.. so we all agree dot dabbing is wrong... ok