The right to reply...

[project damager]

I wrote to Dave (the forum Admin) to discuss my “right of reply” to a thread recently posted by “mcsludge”, strange that when I employed this gentleman his name on this forum was “datt”, anyway we agreed that so long as this did not turn into a slanging match, it would be helpful to have both sides of the story…

The post can be found at:

Recent Job - what do you think?


I am grateful to those of you who took the time out to drop me a note to encourage me to respond.

I take no comfort in stopping money from this gentleman and genuinely believe I was right to do so. I have had numerous tradesmen in my home over the past 10 years and have never ever previously had to take this action. In spite of the rhetoric and words used against me, I respect that those of you that have commented have done so on the basis of what you have read. I hope that you will read this and reconsider your words.

I stopped this Gentleman £141.00, from the price that we agreed, paying him a total of £ 300.00 against an agreed price of £ 441.00. I have set up a vote attached to this thread. If after reading the facts, the majority genuinely believe I was wrong in making the deduction then I will send a cheque for £ 141.00 to the tiler. The only caveat I am placing is that if you vote, either way, I want you to take the time out to post a reply with your reasons. So, if we get 20 votes I expect to see 20 replies. I hope that this way we will get genuine votes and if I am wrong I will be able to understand why and learn from it.

Finally, this is not going to become a slanging match. I will answer any direct questions to anyone who asks. I will NOT respond to questions from the tiler, it is clear from the language that he has used to date, that this would not be productive.

The Facts…

Fact 1 - We negotiated a price of £21 per sq mtr for this job.

When this gentleman arrived in the house I asked him to measure the room himself. I did this because I knew that the room was 18.8 sq mtrs but I had already noted it as 21 sq mtrs in the forum. I ordered 21 sq mtrs of tiles – the complete room + 10%, which I still feel was reasonable. I also had 25 sq mtrs of the same product for the family bathroom.

The tiler told me that he usually worked for £ 22.50 sq mtr including materials. I asked him to look at the materials that I had purchased and suggested a price at £20 sq mtr, as I had already bought the materials – the materials cost me in excess of £150.00 from CTD, I still have the receipt. I thought that a reduction of £ 2.50 for the 21 sq mtrs (£ 52.50) seemed reasonable to me, he would still have been some way ahead, even if he had obtained discount which was not available to me. I reviewed his web site and bought his sales pitch about quality and in the end agreed to a price of £21.00 per sq mtr – so effectively he game me £ 1.50 per sq mtr for my materials - £ 31.50!!


Fact 2 – Materials…

2 X 20kg Bal Mosaic Fix Adhesive Bright White

1ltr Bal SBR Bond

3.5kg Bal Superflex Grout Ivory

20kg Biscen Vitri Flex Single Part Flex Grey

310ml Bal Microseal Silicone White

4 X 2500x9 Homelux PVC Tile trim Soft Cream


Fact 3 – Day 1

The tiler called me to tell me that tiles were falling off of the wall, lumps of plaster was simply falling off of the window wall? It appeared to be around an area where there was previous tiling for a tiled shower. Initially, I was concerned that it was something that I had done in making good and preparing the room, the tiler insisted that it was not. I could do nothing other than review it when I got home, the tiler offered to come back to look at it with me, which he did. An area of approx 2 sq mtrs had obviously been tiled and there was a plaster one coat applied to patch’s that had obviously caused the problem, the tiler quite rightly made the point about his wasted day. On the way out I spotted the “Bal SBR Bond” amongst the materials and just confirmed that he had bonded the walls? He said that he had not bonded the walls as he thought that I would have done this? I have no idea if this contributed to the problem or not.

Ultimately, I accepted that it was my fault; it was my house, my plaster was falling off the walls and that I would have to recompense him in some way for the wasted day.


Fact 4 – Day 2

I have provided photographs (1 – 6) of what greeted me at the end of day 2. The tiling was poor quality, the trim was uneven and stuck out from the tiles, there were gaps, the window reveal was poor and the cuts were awful. I marked in pencil each tile that I found to be unacceptable – No Yellow Post It Notes!! – I also left the tiler a hand written note, explaining why I was unhappy and marked up a drawing identifying the areas.


Fact 5 – Most nights…

Unfortunately, when you have a night like day 2, you have no alternative but to check the days work. I did this every evening and I am afraid found tiles that were simply unacceptable.


Fact 6 – Materials…

The tiler used 25 sq mtrs of tiles! Please refer to my calculations above to see how incredible this quantity really is – just for the record, 25 sq mtrs is equal to the room, including the door the vanity unit and the window + 10% + 4 sq mtrs!!!


Fact 7 – The level line…

Late on day 6 the tiler called me with a “serious problem” – having had various similar conversations over the previous week, I initially played this down and said not to worry that I would review it when I got home…

He went on to explain that he had completed the 4th wall and found that the join to the left hand side of the vanity unit was 3/8ths out. I did not totally understand this and just said I would look at it later, he offered to come back again and I said he did not need to, I could review it and leave him a note. He said twice that it was so serious I would not pay him. I never ever agreed with him and never contemplated not doing so.

When I got home I was horrified. The simple fact is that he did not start with one single level line all around the room. The horizontal lines on three walls are level with each other; the fourth wall is 3/8ths lower than the other three! I left a note saying that the mistake was unacceptable and I wanted him to remove the tiles from around the vanity unit and continue the radiator wall “line” around to the left hand side of the vanity unit, where there is a trim for the return.

I acknowledge that I could have asked him to remove the entire 4th wall but by this stage I just wanted the job finished.

I have provided a photograph “10 - Unacceptable Error” showing this unforgivable mistake – interestingly a photograph the tiler managed to hide from you all.

Finally, on the subject of photographs, this gentleman took photographs of my home without my permission; he has also used one of the photographs on his web site without authority to do so. If I did this in my professional life I would lose my clients and would likely lose my job.

That’s my side of the story…

[Dave]

Thanks for those photo's.........now that throws a different light on the job ......I think it's not the best of jobs and the pic of the height difference is enough on it's own...to justify a call back.......

I shall not vote as i think i will leave this to the members.........

again thanks for your side of things........

[monty]

It's not letting me look at the pictures, saying "you do not have the right to look at the picture"

[enduro]

I do think you have the right to knock money off, a bit better setting out and attention to detail is what is needed. I hope you guys can sort this out between yourselves.

[sWe]

Heh, well, the pictures you've posted certainly tell a different story than the ones posted in the thread you linked.

[Branty]

It does put a different perspective to the job.
I have said you should pay him, because when all said and done £441 is peanuts for the amount of tiling done.
If you're still not happy get him back to put it right. At his expense. If his not happy not being paid, and your not happy with the finish, then you need it sorted. If he refuses to come back, saying the job is ok. Then you could hold back some money. Then get another tiler to sort the problem.
I would have thought a more reasonable price, would be somewhere around £600+ without materials.

[robbo]

I think the biggest problem by far is the height difference in photo 10. With regards to withholding money from the tiler only you can decide what you think the job is worth holding back in cash, i think if you know the problem is there(height difference) you'll keep looking at it every time you go in that room and it will really **** you off.....

[sWe]

I think the biggest problem by far is the height difference in photo 10.

I agree. That's just bad tiling.

I don't really have an opinion on what to do with regards to pay, as I don't know british customs and rules on this matter. I'll say this much though:

If I had been in your shoes, I wouldn't want to pay the full sum unless the dodgy bit were corrected in a satisfactory manner, either by the original tiler, or some other tiler, at the first guy's expense.

[Branty]

One more thing, have the problems highlighted been resolved?

[brundlefly]

I think the original price was seriously cheap to start with

550 to 600 seems a more realistic price labour only

I think the dodgy cuts could easily be fixed but the height difference is a problem to fix (if at all)
I didn’t vote but I was tempted to vote “pay the tiler” only based on the original price being way too low to start with, but the height difference looks ummm not good so i was at a stand still on the vote

Perhaps a call back to redo the cuts and a chat about holding back an amount for the lines going astray and a box of tiles for the cuts, it’s a good world when both sides can have their say well done for taking time out to put your side across

[faithhealer]

Thank you for giving us your side of the story.
Sorry but sitting on the fence , It looks like the tiler had a bad day at the office, trim around windows should be better than that and he should have corrected it himself. I know what it's like when the pressures on and the walls are all over the place. As for the misalignment , hope he buys himself a cheap laser level with some of his £300. (probably couldn't set his batons up with his level due to the 'step'.)
So, No the tiler didn't fulfil the contract and wasn't due payment, but should have been given the chance to put things right, if he could, but sounds like this job ran away from him.
When I first started out, I found window reveals hard going, still a pain in the bum sometimes!
Did this tiler have any references? and was it the only quote you recieved?
Thanks again for reply
John

[jamesy07]

Nearly two weeks - the reason for this being that I lost the first day when the plaster on the first wall was blown so I had to remove the mornings work and clean off all adhesive etc.

Bad mistake, The walls should have been checked when you went to price the job up

[Dan]

It is nice to see both sides of the story. I would have agreed with the tiler before, though now I think it's fair to say there wasn't much the customer could do to rectify his problems - he's guided by the tiler - right?

Either way I'm staying out of the topic and will leave it to the members to discuss. I'm pleased to see the forum can be used methodically though to sort problems out. And thanks to you both for providing us with some reading.

[Ultimate Tiling]

Sounds like a case of pay peanuts get monkeys.
Quality comes with a price

[TilingLogistics]

The level of tiling should be better. However, the price to start with was ridiculous it should have been closer to £650 IMO. How a tiler can state he normally charges £22.50 M2 I will never know. The M2 price varies on where and what they are being fixed to, the size of the tile and the tile material so how anyone can have a flat price per M2 is beyond me. I think i would give him the chance to correct it and pay him in full but hey thats only my opinion and I am not going to vote.

There is someone on here has in his sign off signature "Pay Cheap Pay Twice" how true it is in this case.

Kev

[howard]

tiling not good enough thats what happens when you get a cheap tiler in to do the job

[Branty]

This turning into a very intersting thread.
This tiler has made some 'school boy errors', but in no way is it the worst tiling I've ever seen.
I would imagine he has rushed the job, once he realised the price was well to low, started making some little mistakes, the customer was on the ball adding to more pressure, then the big error round the cupbaord.
This is a classic example of charging the right money, and paying the right money.
I wonder if anyone here, charging £650, would have got this job?
I think what can be learned here is, if you can do the job (which I believe this fixer could), then charge the right money.
If you want a good job done, be prepared to pay.
I say this because I to have found myself in that situation, where you've seriously under sold yourself, and I've found myself cutting corners, to make the job pay. Not a great thing to own up to, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. Saying that I only done a few times in the early days, then soon realised it's better all round to charge a decent price, and sell the job to the customer 1st.
What it did teach me is, make your prices decent, and stick to them (pardon the pun).
I hope that all makes sense.

[NW tiler]

Having looked at both sides of the argument, I can see that, as a customer, that you have a right to be disappointed with the end result.

The window frame is poor and the grout line is unacceptable.

I'm a new tiler, less than a years experience, but I would never leave a job in that state.

I think what he originally charged you was irrelevant, if the tiler thought he could do it that cheap then that is his problem. I agree with most people, £600 would have been nearer the mark. But alarm bells should have rung in your mind as to why this guy was so cheap.

The problem you will have is that he will not come back and correct the mistakes, you will not pay him the full amount, therefore you will either have to live with it or get another tiler in to correct the mistakes. If the latter is the case, you'll have to rip it down and start all over again!

[project damager]

Thank you everyone for the feedback, good bad or indifferent, I respect everyone's opinion.

I have drafted out some answers to questions raised...


Branty

One more thing, have the problems highlighted been resolved?

Answer: The problems identified in photographs 1 – 6 have been corrected. The trim is better but not great. These were the items identified on the evening of day 2 and unfortunately set the scene for the rest of the job.


Robbo

I think the biggest problem by far is the height difference in photo 10.

Answer: I agree but let’s be clear about where the problem is now. Initially, the tiler offered it to me with the problem in the right hand corner of the bathroom – the joint of the radiator wall and the vanity unit, which meant that when you entered the room it would scream at you. The problem has been shifted to the left hand side of the vanity unit so know you only see it “through” the installed shower unit. I cannot face ripping down the entire radiator wall and face of vanity unit in order to correct it.

Faithhealer

Did this tiler have any references? And was it the only quote you received?

Answer: Quick piece of background. I spent ages preparing this room, with a view to doing the job myself. If you read my early posts they will support my position. In all honesty, I lost my bottle at the point at which I was about to tile. It was at this point that I posted the note below:

http://www.tilersforums.co.uk/tiling-forum/8687-tiler-required-huntingdon-area.html

I had a number of replies mostly from guys who were, in hindsight not surprisingly, unavailable for some time! This guy contacted me, having just moved and said he was struggling to get going but was prepared to come and look at the job.

So, to answer your questions – No the tiler did not have any references; I reviewed his web site and was reasonably impressed with what I saw. I did not get quotes from any others, simply because of the time frame. I recognise now I was wrong, I guess it would have highlighted what the real cost of the job should have been, I accept that now.


Branty

This is a classic example of charging the right money, and paying the right money. I wonder if anyone here, charging £650, would have got this job?

Answer: A lot is being said about the price. Let me respond by saying I never set the price. All I wanted was to be treated fairly and my negotiation was about the tiler recognising that I had paid out a considerable sum for the materials.

Whatever had been quoted, if it included materials, I would simply have asked for a reduction to recognise the materials that I had bought – which I valued at £2.50 per sq mtr. This did not recompense me for all my expenditure but contributed towards the costs. I was trying to recognise that you guys would purchase at discount.

This was absolutely not about money. On the weekend prior to the call about the levels, my wife and I had agreed that we would pay him an additional amount to compensate him for his loss of time on day 1, as we felt that he could not be held responsible for it.

[monty]

Having looked at both sides of the argument, I can see that, as a customer, that you have a right to be disappointed with the end result.

The window frame is poor and the grout line is unacceptable.

I'm a new tiler, less than a years experience, but I would never leave a job in that state.

I think what he originally charged you was irrelevant, if the tiler thought he could do it that cheap then that is his problem. I agree with most people, £600 would have been nearer the mark. But alarm bells should have rung in your mind as to why this guy was so cheap.

The problem you will have is that he will not come back and correct the mistakes, you will not pay him the full amount, therefore you will either have to live with it or get another tiler in to correct the mistakes. If the latter is the case, you'll have to rip it down and start all over again!

I know the professional way to correct this would be to rip the lot down...But if this is not a option could you not just take the 4 tiles down cut the top tile to suit the grout line and bring the other 3 up? (see pic) Would be a lot cheaper and certainly look a lot better? Correct me if I'm wrong.

10%20-%20Unacceptable%20Error.jpg

[chris.tiling]

I know the professional way to correct this would be to rip the lot down...But if this is not a option could you not just take the 4 tiles down cut the top tile to suit the grout line and bring the other 3 up? (see pic) Would be a lot cheaper and certainly look a lot better? Correct me if I'm wrong.

10%20-%20Unacceptable%20Error.jpg

Monty...looks from one of the other pictures that the tiles then continue below the cupboard door so need to meet, so I dont think this is an option either

[NW tiler]

I know the professional way to correct this would be to rip the lot down...But if this is not a option could you not just take the 4 tiles down cut the top tile to suit the grout line and bring the other 3 up? (see pic) Would be a lot cheaper and certainly look a lot better? Correct me if I'm wrong.

10%20-%20Unacceptable%20Error.jpg

Monty

That is an option but, the grout line either side of the cuboard would not line up, also underneath the cupboard would not meet.

Whatever the customer decides upon, it's going to be messy, expensive and take a long time.

Just glad it wasn't one of my jobs posted on here.

[Droopy]

I've seen worse, far worse.
There are a few silly mistakes, but apart from the lines not meeting at the cupboard and the trim, that has been fixed, nothing that would justify holding back any money. Especially at the price it was done for.
As for the bit at the cupboard, it could be made less noticeable, if not fixed, pretty easily.
If the cuts up the side, from the first one above the bottom of the door, are removed and then the first one replaced by a cut that would make up the difference of the F*up.
By that I mean if the tiles are 600x300 adn the width of that cut is say, 40 mm and the height difference is 15mm, if you make a cut that is 40mmx315mm, then continue with normal 300x40mm cuts up the rest of it.
Then the only place that it would be noticeable is at the bottom.
Not ideal, I know, but way better than it is now.
A couple of other points, I would have insisted that coving was removed. You never get a good enough finish when the tile is as thick, or thicker than the cove. It can also leave a cut edge proud of the cove in places.
And no way was 2x20kg of rapid set ever going to do 20mtrs.
You should at least pay him for the extra adhesive he no doubt used.

[CJ]

Difficult one this

In my opinion, the tiler totally messed up in the pricing as has been mentioned.....But other than the tiling being way out on the door wall, I think the other niggles are everyday teasers faced by tilers...........its how you cure them that shows a pro finish.

I think the tiler rushed, but a lot does depend on the prep work carried out..........where the walls straight and level, tiles that size need good walls.........and good setting out.

Should you, or should you not withold money.............................I can't make my mind up.........I can see both sides of the argument..............and as the original price was way out, I can understand the tiler being ****ed off.

By the sounds of it you have both reached stalemate.................so wot happens next.

End of my tanners worth

[GazTech]

I think you have what you have payed for. Quotes from separate fixers would have been more appropriate. If I request any trade to work for me I don't expect them to be available at the drop of a hat. I voted, pay him and move on with the experience. I'm sure your good self could attempt to rectify the mistakes and enjoy doing it....Gaz

[Fekin]

Quite an interesting thread, but no doubt for the tiler and very embarrassing one too.

No matter what the tiler quoted for the job, has no bearing on this matter really as he was obviously happy with the agreed amount, and I fully agree with the price reduction regarding materials too.

If I had any work done in my home, and I had a genuine reason for complaint regarding quality, then I wouldn't be inclined to pay full costs without the problem being fixed at no extra charge.

Good luck with it.

[Sir Ramic]

So the tiler saw the job, he agreed the price. Thats up to him, he must have been happy at that point.
I am glad we have seen the other side of the story.
Yes i see some of the cuts are uneven under the cornice and could or have been rectified.
My main concern is how he got so far out of level in the 1st place? I have to say it was down to the initial setting out or lack of it.
Purely on that i will vote you were right and still are right to retain money.
I hate seeing tilers ripped off and i do feel sorry for the tiler but whether the quote was £400 or £4000 the tiling was out of level.
As for the tiler rushing the job ...FFS how long did it take him? Sounds to me a case of inexperience.
Just my opinion.

[J4CK THE RIPPER]

So the tiler saw the job, he agreed the price. Thats up to him, he must have been happy at that point.
I am glad we have seen the other side of the story.
Yes i see some of the cuts are uneven under the cornice and could or have been rectified.
My main concern is how he got so far out of level in the 1st place? I have to say it was down to the initial setting out or lack of it.
Purely on that i will vote you were right and still are right to retain money.
I hate seeing tilers ripped off and i do feel sorry for the tiler but whether the quote was £400 or £4000 the tiling was out of level.
As for the tiler rushing the job ...FFS how long did it take him? Sounds to me a case of inexperience.
Just my opinion.

Sir ramic when you have a very large room to tile and your starting of on one wall and moving round the room how do you get your grout lines to meet bang on level when the tiles meet on the final wall? I find it very hard exspecially on large rooms. Do you use a laser level?

[Fekin]

Measure and draw a datum line all the way around the room and stick to it.

[hillhead]

thats one rough piece of tiling,the tiling rates are lower over here in N.Ireland but the quality is a hell of a lot higher than that.
I'd have him sort it all out for the money or just give it to someone else.
No tiler likes sorting another tilers mess!