The right to reply...

[project damager]

I wrote to Dave (the forum Admin) to discuss my “right of reply” to a thread recently posted by “mcsludge”, strange that when I employed this gentleman his name on this forum was “datt”, anyway we agreed that so long as this did not turn into a slanging match, it would be helpful to have both sides of the story…

The post can be found at:

Recent Job - what do you think?


I am grateful to those of you who took the time out to drop me a note to encourage me to respond.

I take no comfort in stopping money from this gentleman and genuinely believe I was right to do so. I have had numerous tradesmen in my home over the past 10 years and have never ever previously had to take this action. In spite of the rhetoric and words used against me, I respect that those of you that have commented have done so on the basis of what you have read. I hope that you will read this and reconsider your words.

I stopped this Gentleman £141.00, from the price that we agreed, paying him a total of £ 300.00 against an agreed price of £ 441.00. I have set up a vote attached to this thread. If after reading the facts, the majority genuinely believe I was wrong in making the deduction then I will send a cheque for £ 141.00 to the tiler. The only caveat I am placing is that if you vote, either way, I want you to take the time out to post a reply with your reasons. So, if we get 20 votes I expect to see 20 replies. I hope that this way we will get genuine votes and if I am wrong I will be able to understand why and learn from it.

Finally, this is not going to become a slanging match. I will answer any direct questions to anyone who asks. I will NOT respond to questions from the tiler, it is clear from the language that he has used to date, that this would not be productive.

The Facts…

Fact 1 - We negotiated a price of £21 per sq mtr for this job.

When this gentleman arrived in the house I asked him to measure the room himself. I did this because I knew that the room was 18.8 sq mtrs but I had already noted it as 21 sq mtrs in the forum. I ordered 21 sq mtrs of tiles – the complete room + 10%, which I still feel was reasonable. I also had 25 sq mtrs of the same product for the family bathroom.

The tiler told me that he usually worked for £ 22.50 sq mtr including materials. I asked him to look at the materials that I had purchased and suggested a price at £20 sq mtr, as I had already bought the materials – the materials cost me in excess of £150.00 from CTD, I still have the receipt. I thought that a reduction of £ 2.50 for the 21 sq mtrs (£ 52.50) seemed reasonable to me, he would still have been some way ahead, even if he had obtained discount which was not available to me. I reviewed his web site and bought his sales pitch about quality and in the end agreed to a price of £21.00 per sq mtr – so effectively he game me £ 1.50 per sq mtr for my materials - £ 31.50!!


Fact 2 – Materials…

2 X 20kg Bal Mosaic Fix Adhesive Bright White

1ltr Bal SBR Bond

3.5kg Bal Superflex Grout Ivory

20kg Biscen Vitri Flex Single Part Flex Grey

310ml Bal Microseal Silicone White

4 X 2500x9 Homelux PVC Tile trim Soft Cream


Fact 3 – Day 1

The tiler called me to tell me that tiles were falling off of the wall, lumps of plaster was simply falling off of the window wall? It appeared to be around an area where there was previous tiling for a tiled shower. Initially, I was concerned that it was something that I had done in making good and preparing the room, the tiler insisted that it was not. I could do nothing other than review it when I got home, the tiler offered to come back to look at it with me, which he did. An area of approx 2 sq mtrs had obviously been tiled and there was a plaster one coat applied to patch’s that had obviously caused the problem, the tiler quite rightly made the point about his wasted day. On the way out I spotted the “Bal SBR Bond” amongst the materials and just confirmed that he had bonded the walls? He said that he had not bonded the walls as he thought that I would have done this? I have no idea if this contributed to the problem or not.

Ultimately, I accepted that it was my fault; it was my house, my plaster was falling off the walls and that I would have to recompense him in some way for the wasted day.


Fact 4 – Day 2

I have provided photographs (1 – 6) of what greeted me at the end of day 2. The tiling was poor quality, the trim was uneven and stuck out from the tiles, there were gaps, the window reveal was poor and the cuts were awful. I marked in pencil each tile that I found to be unacceptable – No Yellow Post It Notes!! – I also left the tiler a hand written note, explaining why I was unhappy and marked up a drawing identifying the areas.


Fact 5 – Most nights…

Unfortunately, when you have a night like day 2, you have no alternative but to check the days work. I did this every evening and I am afraid found tiles that were simply unacceptable.


Fact 6 – Materials…

The tiler used 25 sq mtrs of tiles! Please refer to my calculations above to see how incredible this quantity really is – just for the record, 25 sq mtrs is equal to the room, including the door the vanity unit and the window + 10% + 4 sq mtrs!!!


Fact 7 – The level line…

Late on day 6 the tiler called me with a “serious problem” – having had various similar conversations over the previous week, I initially played this down and said not to worry that I would review it when I got home…

He went on to explain that he had completed the 4th wall and found that the join to the left hand side of the vanity unit was 3/8ths out. I did not totally understand this and just said I would look at it later, he offered to come back again and I said he did not need to, I could review it and leave him a note. He said twice that it was so serious I would not pay him. I never ever agreed with him and never contemplated not doing so.

When I got home I was horrified. The simple fact is that he did not start with one single level line all around the room. The horizontal lines on three walls are level with each other; the fourth wall is 3/8ths lower than the other three! I left a note saying that the mistake was unacceptable and I wanted him to remove the tiles from around the vanity unit and continue the radiator wall “line” around to the left hand side of the vanity unit, where there is a trim for the return.

I acknowledge that I could have asked him to remove the entire 4th wall but by this stage I just wanted the job finished.

I have provided a photograph “10 - Unacceptable Error” showing this unforgivable mistake – interestingly a photograph the tiler managed to hide from you all.

Finally, on the subject of photographs, this gentleman took photographs of my home without my permission; he has also used one of the photographs on his web site without authority to do so. If I did this in my professional life I would lose my clients and would likely lose my job.

That’s my side of the story…

[Dave]

Thanks for those photo's.........now that throws a different light on the job ......I think it's not the best of jobs and the pic of the height difference is enough on it's own...to justify a call back.......

I shall not vote as i think i will leave this to the members.........

again thanks for your side of things........

[monty]

It's not letting me look at the pictures, saying "you do not have the right to look at the picture"

[enduro]

I do think you have the right to knock money off, a bit better setting out and attention to detail is what is needed. I hope you guys can sort this out between yourselves.

[sWe]

Heh, well, the pictures you've posted certainly tell a different story than the ones posted in the thread you linked.

[Branty]

It does put a different perspective to the job.
I have said you should pay him, because when all said and done £441 is peanuts for the amount of tiling done.
If you're still not happy get him back to put it right. At his expense. If his not happy not being paid, and your not happy with the finish, then you need it sorted. If he refuses to come back, saying the job is ok. Then you could hold back some money. Then get another tiler to sort the problem.
I would have thought a more reasonable price, would be somewhere around £600+ without materials.

[robbo]

I think the biggest problem by far is the height difference in photo 10. With regards to withholding money from the tiler only you can decide what you think the job is worth holding back in cash, i think if you know the problem is there(height difference) you'll keep looking at it every time you go in that room and it will really **** you off.....

[sWe]

Originally Posted by robbo

I think the biggest problem by far is the height difference in photo 10.

I agree. That's just bad tiling.

I don't really have an opinion on what to do with regards to pay, as I don't know british customs and rules on this matter. I'll say this much though:

If I had been in your shoes, I wouldn't want to pay the full sum unless the dodgy bit were corrected in a satisfactory manner, either by the original tiler, or some other tiler, at the first guy's expense.

[Branty]

One more thing, have the problems highlighted been resolved?

[brundlefly]

I think the original price was seriously cheap to start with

550 to 600 seems a more realistic price labour only

I think the dodgy cuts could easily be fixed but the height difference is a problem to fix (if at all)
I didn’t vote but I was tempted to vote “pay the tiler” only based on the original price being way too low to start with, but the height difference looks ummm not good so i was at a stand still on the vote

Perhaps a call back to redo the cuts and a chat about holding back an amount for the lines going astray and a box of tiles for the cuts, it’s a good world when both sides can have their say well done for taking time out to put your side across

[faithhealer]

Thank you for giving us your side of the story.
Sorry but sitting on the fence , It looks like the tiler had a bad day at the office, trim around windows should be better than that and he should have corrected it himself. I know what it's like when the pressures on and the walls are all over the place. As for the misalignment , hope he buys himself a cheap laser level with some of his £300. (probably couldn't set his batons up with his level due to the 'step'.)
So, No the tiler didn't fulfil the contract and wasn't due payment, but should have been given the chance to put things right, if he could, but sounds like this job ran away from him.
When I first started out, I found window reveals hard going, still a pain in the bum sometimes!
Did this tiler have any references? and was it the only quote you recieved?
Thanks again for reply
John

[jamesy07]

Nearly two weeks - the reason for this being that I lost the first day when the plaster on the first wall was blown so I had to remove the mornings work and clean off all adhesive etc.

Bad mistake, The walls should have been checked when you went to price the job up