sWe's guides

[sWe]

Lately, I've been asked to PM a few of the guides I've written, to members who don't have access to the tilers arms and such.

I do that gladly, but I figure it's better if I give those who want them a single link instead. Therefore, I'm compiling most of the guides I've written into this thread.

Hang on...

[sWe]

A quick guide to regular grouting using a washboy and floats


Introduction

An excellent grouting job can save a poor tiling job. A poor grouting job can ruin even the very best of tiling jobs. Here follows a short guide on the why's and how to's of regular grouting.

Choosing grout

There are many variables to take into account when you choose grout. Here are a few of them:

• Substrate stiffness - The stiffer the substrate is, the less important the flexibility of the grout becomes. On substrates made from board materials, the grout should be flexible.
• Tile density - Make sure to pick a grout suitable for the density of the tiles you're using. Grout meant for regular soft ceramics might not stick to porcelain, glass, or other really dense materials.
• Tile sensitivity - Natural stone tiles tend to be sensitive to water disoloration. Use a grout which binds water chemically, rapidly, to prevent that. Same goes for the adhesive. You might even need to preseal the tiles before grouting. Do not do that on unfilled natural stone tiles, as the sealant will prevent the grout from getting a proper grip. Opinions differ on this though.
• Exposure - Make sure to choose a grout suitable for the mechanical and chemical wear the surface is going to be exposed to. In certain situations, you might need epoxy grout.
• Adhesive color - If you use a light colored grout, it is preferable to choose a light colored adhesive as well, to prevent discolouration and minimize visibility of any excess grout which wasn't noticable before grouting.

You generally don't want to use white grout where there's risk for staining, ie in showers, on floors, and on kitchen splashbacks directly behind the cooking unit.
If you do, you risk getting a very noticable yellowish discoloration.

If the tiling job isn't spot on, choosing a grout which is close to the tiles in color makes any flaws much harder to see.

Grouting basics

Only grout and clean one surface at a time, and if it is large, you may want to divide it into sections. Doing this ensures the grout doesn't dry up too much. Bear in mind that you don't want the grout to be too fresh/wet either. If it is too wet, the additional water on the sponge will weaken the grout. You have to find a compromise between ease of cleaning, and the amount of time you wait before cleaning, up to a certain point. Wait to long after application and the job will be botched. Wait to little, and the grout will crumble after a few months.

Do consider, that though the manufacturers usually recommend you leave the grout to set for ten to fifteen minutes, it really depends on the nature of the tiles. If they're very porous, they absorb alot of the water from the grout very quickly. If they're very dense and absorb very little moisture, you need to leave it to set for a bit longer, which allows you to grout larger sections at a time. You'll get a feel for it after a few times.

Mixing

ALWAYS, and I cannot stress this enough, use clean tools. Old adhesive or grout residue will accelerate the curing of the grout, and that'll compromise the quality of the end result. Any dirt might cause discolouration of the grout as well.

If you don't measure the amount of water and powder you use, you generally want the grout to be about the consistency of mayonaise. This depends on the type and brand of grout you use. It's easier to measure if you've got a graded scoop and bucket or similar, and it's also recommended you do.

Know this: mixing by hand is pretty useless unless it's a really small batch. Those who say you can't get a proper result using an electrical mixer, probably used a regular high-RPM drill and some cheap paddle, instead of a proper low-RPM mortar mixer and a proper grout paddle.

In fact, you're more likely to get a bad result when you mix by hand, than you are when using a proper mixer. The grout is supposed to be completely homogenous, and there can't be any lumps. By using a proper grout paddle and a low-RPM mortar mixer, you'll avoid mixing air into it.

Before you start grouting, let the grout "rest" for about two minutes in the bucket, and then mix it once more. This produces a perfect consistency if you've done everything else right.

Grouting

Pick some grout up with a bucket trowel or similar, and put it onto your grout float.

If you're grouting a wall, always begin from the top. This is because you want to start from the top when washing too, or you'll have to go over the entire thing again just to clean away drippage. Also, where you started grouting, will have had the longest time to set when you start washing, so it's only logical to start there.

Put the grout onto the wall, begining high, with a vertical motion. Don't press hard.

Start going over the grout with firm 45 degree motions. This works the grout into the grout lines, and avoids "digging" grout out.

You want there to be as little grout as possible left on the tiles themselves when you start washing off.

If you're grouting a floor, put the grout directly onto it from the bucket or the trowel. "Push" it infront of the grout float using an "S"-like motion.

I tend to begin in the corners, both on walls and floors. Make sure to not grout the corner grout lines if you intend to silicone them.

Washboy basics

Fill the washboy with cold, clean water, so that it covers the grating by around 2-3 cm.

Wet/clean the sponge. If the float is dirty, you'll remove the "muck" by pressing against the grating.

Remove the excess water. Do this by going over the rollers with the sponge float once, then stopping with one end "flat" against the rollers, and then "squeese" the end dry by tilting the float up to an angle of about 45 degrees. Repeat on the other end, and go over the rollers with the entire float again. If the sponge leaks water when going over the roller the last time, you need to repeat. You want the sponge float to be as clean as possible, and damp, not wet. Too much water can damage the grouting mortar, making it brittle and unevenly coloured.

Washing

Go over the tiles in a circular motion with the sponge float. Your objective in this stage isn't cleaning, but to even out the grout. The need for this movement depends on the nature of the tiles, how long the grout has had to set, and how well you applied the grout in the first place.

The circular motion also cleans away the worst excess, but leaves enough to work with when cleaning. Clean the sponge as needed, but not too often. This stage can also be done with a polishing float (large scotch brite pad), which allows you to let the grout cure more before the final cleaning.

Fill out any gaps in the grouting as needed. Often, you just need to use a finger.

When the grout is fairly even, you can start removing the excess grout. Do this by pressing the float firmly against the surface, and going slooowly in a horisontal motion. Start from the top. Clean just as you start noting the float leaving as "track".

Any dirty excess water drips downwards, and by keeping the motion horisontal, you clean the drip up as you go.

If there is a "film" on the tiles, wait a few minutes for the grout to become a little bit dryer to the touch, and go over the surface lightly with the float. Make sure it is just damp with clean water. To much water may weaken the grout; dirty water is counterproductive. After a few hours, you can go over the grouted surfaces with a clean piece of cloth in order to clean away any residue on the tiles. You can also use a polishing float to polish.

Cleaning grout is about finding a good compromise between speed and the quality of the result, which works for you and your way of working. Some techniques require loads of time, but produce perfect results, and vice versa.
As you get more experienced, you'll need less time to produce a good result.

Final notes

I find that my technique is sufficiently fast for the most part, and the result is as close to perfect I can get within a reasonable amount of time.

When you're done grouting, empty the water somewhere you don't risk causing a blockage. In the bottom of the washboy, there will be a layer of cement. If it's new, it'll be lose, and you can scrape it out, or wash it out with a hose. If it's been there for a day or so, or if you've been doing lots of grouting, then you can "tap" it out, by putting the washboy upside down, and tapping with the handle of a trowel round the edges. Do not tap in the middle, as you might crack the plastic if you tap too hard.

A handy tip (heh) would be to wear nitril rubber gloves when you grout. Excessive skin contact with cement based materials can cause eczema. You also won't suffer as much if the water is really cold.

Wear some sort of facemask when you mix grout and adhesive. Breathing in dust from cement based materials, especially polymer reinforced such, can cause (really) severe asthma in the long run if you're unlucky. Hearing protection is a must as well.

[sWe]

Diagnosing grout failiure

Possible reasons for grout failiure:

• Improperly prepped substrate (ie not stiff enough)
• Grout which doesn't cope with the conditions in which you've used it

a. Not enough flexibility, though the need for that should be countered with proper substrate preparation and reinforcment
b. Grout which doesn't stick well enough to the tiles, ie grout meant for porous tiles, and you've used really dense tiles.
c. Grout which is meant for thicker grout lines than you've made (for example, using grout meant for 4-12mm lines, when you've made the lines 2mm)
d. Grout which is meant for thinner grout lines that you've made (for example using grout meant for 0-3mm when you've made the lines 5mm)

• Faulty batch of grout
• Too much water when mixing the grout (weakens the grout; can also cause effloresence or uneven colouring)
• Too little water when mixing the grout (weakens the grout; can also cause uneven colouring)
• Adding water to the mix after the grout has started setting in the bucket
• Exceeding the open time of the grout when grouting (ie mixing too much in one go; weakens the grout, can also cause effloresence or uneven colouring)
• Contaminated water (which makes the grout cure too fast, or unevenly; can also cause discolouration)
• Too warm envionment while the grout cures (too fast curing)
• Too dry environment while the grout cures (too fast curing)
• Too cold environment while the grout cures (too slow curing; can also cause effloresence or uneven colouring)
• Sunlight exposure while curing (uneven and too fast curing)
• Grouting too soon after setting the tiles (can result in cracked grout, from adhesive shrinkage or tile movement; can also cause effloresence, discolouring, or uneven colouring)
• Too much water when washing after after application of grout (weakens the grout; can also cause effloresence or uneven colouring)
• Washing too soon after application of grout (weakens the grout; can also cause effloresence or uneven colouring)
• Walking on the floor too soon after grouting (can damage the grout in several ways, including floor movement; can also contaminate the grout)
• Washing with strong detergents too soon after grouting (can damage and weaken the grout; can also cause effloresence or uneven colouring)
• Impregnating too soon after grouting (can damage and weaken the grout; can also cause effloresence or uneven colouring)

This is not a complete list by any means.

[sWe]

A guide to using silicone

General information and guidelines

The point of siliconing is threefold:

• To mask poor cutting in corners.
• To waterproof holes made after tanking.
• To neutralize movements in the surrounding structure.

If you use regular grout in corners where there might be structural movement, and then use silicone over it, you defeat the purpose of the silicone, and you risk cracking. Over here, we refer to silicone as "movement grouting", for just that reason. Use silicone where it is due, and regular grout where it is due.

Do use silicone:

• Where the substrate is concrete which is less than one year old (it shrinks).
• Where the substrate is board material, eg drywall, mounted on a wooden or metallic frame (moves with temperature and humidity).
• In new buildings, regardless of substrate, as there will be movement.
• Where one substrate material meets another (eg concrete floor meets plasterboard).
• Where sanitary wares, counter tops, etc, connects with tiled surfaces

You don't need to use silicone for structural reasons:

• Where all surfaces are made from concrete which is more than one year old. Prefereably, they should be more than two years old.

There are a few other circumstances where it might, or might not be appropriate, but I can't be arsed. Tell you this though: It's safer to use silicone, than to not use it. If you think it's needed, from structural reasons or otherwise, then by all means use it. Bear in mind that silicone joints and harder to keep clean than regular grout joints, and that there are many different types of silicone. Chose one suitable for you intended application.

If you want to do movement joints outdoors, you might want to use polymer reinforced silicone.

As for drying: Drying times are almost always listed on the tube.


Guide to siliconing

Grout the surrounding tiles, but make sure there is no grout or otherwise where you intend to use silicone.

If you feel unsure about your technique, and feel you might make a mess, use masking tape of some sort.

Apply the silicone in nice even strings. There are two general types of silicone tools you use for smoothing: One which removes excess, and one which doesn't.

If you tool removes excess, it's good if the string is a little thicker than you want the finished result to be. If your tool doesn't (your index finger is in this category), you'll need to be careful to not apply too much, especially if you aren't using masking tape.

Use some sort of liquid which stops the silicone from sticking. Some silicone manufacturers sell special anti-sticking liquids, which you apply to the tool, and to the silicone string. Most however, use regular detergent (soap) mixed with water. Make sure it's colourant free first though. Strong detergent will ruin the silicone.

Apply the anti-sticking liquid using a water spray, to your tool, and the surrounding tiles, as well as the silicone. If you use masking tape, you only need to spray the tool.

Smooth the silicone with the tool, using a long, even motion.

If the tool removes excess, dump the waste in a waste bag before it starts making a mess.

If needed, spray the tool and the silicone again. When the silicone has a suitable thickness, you might want to go over it using your finger, in one light, long motion. If you've used masking tape, remove it when you're finished.

[Dan]

Thank-you sWe!

[sWe]

Self-Leveling Compound

Using SLC is not as straight forward as it seems. You have to be absolutley sure that you pick a suitable product, and there are many many variables to take into account. Here follows a few pointers.

• Indoors or outdoors? - Outdoors products need to be frost resistant
• Domestic or commercial? - You need to pick a product with a suitable rate of strength development and final tensile and compressive strength
• Wet or dry? - Most SLC's are water resistant (not waterproof), but double check to be sure.
• Rising damp? - Pick an SLC suitable for conditions with rising damp. Most outdoors products can cope with that. If the surface is to be tanked, pick a tanking rpduct suitable for rising damp as well.
• Substrate composition? - Make sure to pick a product which is meant for the specific type of substrate you're going to level. An SLC meant for concrete substrates might not work very well on wooden substrates. For substrates made from different substrates, you may need to come up with a custom solution.
• Substrate soundness? - Will the substrate need to be reinforced or repaired before the application of SLC?
• Thickness of leveling layer? - Pick a product suitable for the thickness you need to pour. Note that most SLC's have a minimum thickness as well as a maxiumum thickness.
• Gradient? - If you need to pour a slope/gradient, the SLC needs to be suitable, ie slightly thicker.
• Size of the area to be leveled? - Will I need to install movement joints?
• Aggregate and/or rebar netting? - Some products require reinforcement with rebar netting on certain substrates; some equire aggregate.
• UFH? - Some SLC's can't be used on UFH.

• Leveling preparation - How will you need to prepare the specific substrate you're leveling? Clean it? Abrade it? Prime it? Slurry it?

• Working times - How long open times and curing times does your SLC have? Do not exceed the open times.

• Curing - Will extra precautions be necessary when the SLC is curing, such as watering it and covering it?

Methods of application

The best method of application depends on several factors, including SLC layer thickness, the consistency of the the compound, the area to be leveled, the condition of the original substrate, and more.

Somewhat simplified:

• Thin to medium thickness on a relatively smooth substrate, without need for slope or gradient - Notched trowel or spiked roller of appropriate size
• Any thickness on very uneven or out of level substrate, with or without need for gradient/slope - Plastering trowel or a similar flat edged tool of appropriate size

Notes

Always use clean tools and containers. Do not expose newly poured SLC to sunlight. Keep an even temperature which is within the tolerance of your specific SLC.

Wear some sort of facemask when you mix SLC. Breathing in dust from cement based materials, especially polymer reinforced such, can cause (really) severe asthma in the long run if you're unlucky. And mixing SLC can be a very dusty business. Hearing protection is a must as well.

Always, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ALWAYS read the product specs thouroghly before use, or you might end up with lots of lost time and money.
If in doubt, call or mail the manufacturer, or their agent.


Four easy ways of controlling SLC thickness:

• Stick your folding ruler into the SLC. The most obvious way, but useless if the initial substrate is uneven.
• Mark the surrounding walls using a ruler or a tape measure, and a spirit level. Mark a bit higher up than your intended final level with a pen, and work your way around the room with the spirit level, making a line. Use that line as a guide to mark the final level with your measuring tool. Just make sure that you hold it at a steady and straight 90 degree angle. Pour up to the marks.
• Put down some sort of level guides (nails for example), and make sure there level with you spirit level. If they're too high, just tap them down a bit.
• Mix exactly the amount you need to get the desired thickness. If a particular SLC requires 1.7Kg powder per mm per m2, and you want to pour a 10mm layer on a surface which is 5m2, do 1.7kg x 10mm X 5m2. The result should be 85Kg. Make sure to mix in the exact amount of water stated in the specs though. Do a search for "materials calculator" on the forums (or simply check my signature), and you'll find a spreadsheet I made which you can use to calculate this.

There are other ways, but these are straight forward enough.

[sWe]

A guide to pricing

Introduction

Though it might work just fine on commercial jobs, I don't believe you can use linear pricing per square meter if you want to have a steady income doing domestic jobs. One price per square meter which is just right for, say, bathrooms, is probably completely off when quoting kitchens, or really large terrazos, etc. It is better to base your pricing on day rates, but there are many things to consider.

It comes down to the following:

• How long is the job going to take? Smaller jobs take proportionally more time than larger jobs.
• How difficult will it be? Are there variables which might complicate the job? Will you want extra pay for those variables?
• How much do you want to make in the end? How much do you need to make in the end?
• Can you remain competative with the derived pricing?

I have little knowledge of what reasonable pricing in the UK is, or how your tax system works, so you may need to modify the following a bit to better suit your conditions.


The basic numbers

Tally the static expenses relating to your business an average year. These include tool purchases/repairs, trade insurance, tax and maintenance on your vechicle, etc.

Divide the sum by the number of months you work an average year.

Add what you need to make in an average month to have a reasonable standard of living, including tax.

If you plan on taking a vacation lasting, say, a month, make sure to add a months salary divided by the number of months you work an average year.

Lets say, for demonstrational purposes, that the sum you come up with is £2000.

Here's a kicker: Not all your work is spent on things you can charge for. Unpaid time includes doing paperwork, meeting customers, etc.
You need to take this into account.

Say you spend 80% of you working time on things which you can charge for.
Divide £2000 by 0,80 (80%). The result is £2500.
Divide £2500 by the number of days you work an average month (22 for a 5 day week in an average month).
The result is that you need to make £113 a day if you work five days a week, of which 80% of the time is on things which pay, to earn £2000 in a month.

You have to put your pricing in relation to this, as well as the going rates on the market. A day-rate of £130 seems to be common when reading on these forums. If this is the case where you live, and the £113/day applies to you, then all is well, and if you manage to consistently get £130 a day, then you'll end up with a £375 profit every month. That's almost 19%.

If the local day-rate is lower than the £113 you need, you need to either cut your expenses, or increase the amount of time you work on things you can charge for.


Comparing pricing

Lets say you got hired to do a 3m2 kitchen splashback. Lets say it takes you one working day to complete it. If you charge 130$ for it, not counting materials, that's a little shy of £44/m2.

For comparison, lets say you got hired to do a bathroom with a total of 25m2 tiling to be done, and you need to prepare the substrate. Lets say it takes you four days to complete. If you charge £130x4 for it, not including materials, that gives you £520, and a m2 price of about £21.


Lets compare a linear rate of £20/m2 + materials, as it seems to be a common price in the UK, with the above method of pricing, using the same examples:

Had you charged £20/m2 + materials for a bathroom (£500), it would've been about right from the economical standpoint we calculated earlier in this post.

Had you charged £20/m2 + materials (£60) for the kitchen splashback, you'd be losing money from the economical standpoint we calculated earlier in this post.

See what I meant about linear pricing being a tad off?


Adding variables

You can add any number of variables to your pricing; those mentioned above are just basic principles.

I'm not going to go into all the details, but based on what I estimated using the above method, I've got a basic call out fee per days work, which is a bit lower than what I want to make per day, but still higher than what I need to make.

On top of that, I've divided my work into categories, for example preparation or replacement of the substrate, tiling, etc. Then I add a charge per square metre, which is based on what type of material will be used, and what size the tiles are. I used standard 15x15 ceramic tiles as a base line for pricing. Larger tiles require more attention to adheive coverage and flushness, smaller tiles takes more time cutting and grouting.

If the customer wants patterns other than regular grid patterns, I add another fee per square meter, based on how difficult and time consuming the pattern is.

For special solutions, I charge per instance, square metre, or liner metre, depending on what it is.

I also add fees on an item basis. For example, for drilling in regular ceramics, I've got a fee which covers the wear on my drills, as well as the time spent measuring and drilling. For drilling in porcelain, the fee per hole is higher, to compensate for the heaver wear on the drill bits.

My call out fees and square metre fees cover my labour, basic wear and tear on my tools. Item fees cover the specific wear and tear on tools, and additional time spent. You can include material costs into this, but I prefer to keep them separate.

I've got ALOT of variables listed, which I take into account when pricing. Here are some of them.

• Total size of wall(s)?
• Total size of floor(s)?
• Number of internal corners?
• Number of external corners?
• Number of floor drains?
• Holes to be made in soft ceramics?
• Holes to be made in hard ceramics?
• Number of pipes?
• Size of tiles?
• Quality of tiles?
• Width of grout lines?
• Leveling? Gradient?
• UFH?
• Waterproofing?
• Replace, repair, or reinforce substrate(s)? What type(s)?
• Removing old tiles? What type of substrate(s) are they on?
• Will I need to call in other trades?
• Waste disposal?
• Renting of special tools?

Etc...

You can add any number of variables to your pricing.


Conclusion

If you, like me, hate surprices, and like being on top of things instead of just charging straight ahead without any further consideration, it really helps to be thorough in all aspects of the game called "The tiling business", not just the tiling itself.

Make a list of variables and prices, and copy it up. When you go to quote jobs, just tick in the numbers, and tally up. Takes a little bit of time to prepare, but you won't have to think much when you go to quote, and it won't take long once you get the hang of it.

Most tilers learn to measure jobs just by eyeing them up. I prefer to be precise.

Just my (many) five cents on the matter.

[videoman]

Fantastic and thanks for all of the information. All I need to do now is try and take it all in.

[sWe]

You're welcome Can't remember all the guides I've written, so I'll add more as I find them.

[sWe]

Epoxy and waterproofing

There seems to be some confusion on this subject. Tiles (except glass tiles and epoxy based tiles) and cement based adhesives and grout are not waterproof. They're mostly resistant to water, which means they don't deteriorate under water's influence, but they still allow water to pass through. Even dense porcelain allow some moisture through, though it's not much.

Long version:

If a floor needs to be waterproof, a waterproof membrane combined with cement based adhesive and grout is normally the best option, as that will allow the floor to dry out.

If you for some reason need to use epoxy grout, and you need the floor to be waterproof, then epoxy adhesive is the way to go. Epoxies are more or less waterproof per definition, though some aren't entirely vapor proof in the long run.

When you use cement based adhesives and epoxy grouts, you want the substrate to be able to pass any moisture which get through. If you use waterproof membranes in combination with cement based adhesives and epoxy grout, water/damp might get trapped in the adhesive and any empty spaces under the tiles.
Though porcelain isn't waterproof per se, the moisture they allow through is less than what cement based adhesive can absorb. Picture putting a damp sponge in a plastic bag with a few pinpricks in. It'll dry, eventually, but it might take ages, and in that time, alot of nasty things can happen; the tiles can be discoloured and there might be mold propagation.

If you use epoxy all the way, only the tiles themselves will become damp, assuming there are no holes through which water can get in.

Short version:

• Floor needs to be waterproof, no particular sanitary (or mechanical/chemical resistance) requirements - Apply a waterproof membrane, and fix and grout the tiles with cement based materials.
• Floor needs to be waterproof, with particular sanitary (or mechanical/chemical resistance) requirements - Epoxy all the way
• Floor doesn't need to be waterproof, with particular sanitary (or mechanical/chemical resistance) requirements - No waterproof membrane; Tiles are fixed with cement or epoxy based adhesives, and grouted with epoxy.

Hope I've cleared up/summarized things in an easily digestible manner now.

[klouan]

Thankyou sWe for taking the time to write these invaluable guides. As a newbie I am finding them really helpful.

[Dave]

Marcus!!!!..You are the man.........

cheeeeeeeeeers...........this will be an invaluable thread for newbies etc etc.......