dot and dab

[diamondtiles]

I came across a tiler the other day when working on site and he was laying wall tiles using the dot and dab technique - if you can call it a technique that is!!!!!!!

Surely this cannot be right???

Must be a rogue tiler???

Anyone got any thoughts on this ???

[grumpygrouter]

No it is not correct! Not to BS and certainly not condoned on this forum.

[GazTech]

dot and dab, (known as spot fixing method), is not recognised within the industry. More often than not it leads to failure.....Gaz

[diamondtiles]

thanks. i thought it was odd...

i feel sorry for his customers

[wetdec]

Yet on a regular basis we remove perfectly sound tiles secured by the old fashioned method of spot fixing....... strange times we live in.


tiler

[pjtiler]

spot fixing was common place back in the sixty /seventy's when adhesive was just coming in
in fact Richarfix (the 1st wall adhesive used in Manchester i believe ) recommended the methered
some of the jobs i did using spot fixing are still there and looking good after 40 odd years ,and im not taking of the odd bathroom
how times have changed

[grumpygrouter]

Maybe it is because modern houses are built using moisture sensitive materials like plasterboard now. Back in the old days the were brick/block/concrete, neither were showers very popular then. Certainly not power showers.

[pjtiler]

Maybe it is because modern houses are built using moisture sensitive materials like plasterboard now. Back in the old days the were brick/block/concrete, neither were showers very popular then. Certainly not power showers.

aye thats one of the reasons no doubt although back in them days i didn't work on houses

serrated trowels not being invented could have something to do with it would,nt you say

[grumpygrouter]

Maybe. Too young to remember.

[wetdec]

Where would all the marketing people be now if it had carried on, you cant really write cutting edge bal literature on how spotting is the future can you

tiler

[NickH]

Had this conversation recently, we take so much time and care on prep etc yet I'm always knocking off old tiles that are still up after 30 years and they have been stuck up with god knows what onto crappy old surfaces covered in old gloss paint etc, maybe we all worry too much.

[wetdec]

We are directed advised pointed baited and encouraged to step along side the marketing machines with money in their sites.

Without us they would fail, without them we would simply go back to spot fixing

[Fekin]

Aye, seen many a job where tiles had been spot fixed and we're still sound 20 years or more later.

[pjc]

i see it all the time on 600x600 porcelain floor tiles these are the people i am up against i solid bed all mine and the clients cant tell the difference until they run the scissor lifts and pallet trucks on them lol

[Grace'sDad]

I just finished taking tiles off an old wetroom last week. They had been stuck onto the original 1953 tiles which were impossible to remove! approx 3/4" thick at 4" square - no grout lines and dot & dabbed onto the bricks.

The homeowner was talking with his neighbour, an old man in his late 80's who actually tiled the bathrooms in all three bungalows in 1953. Laughing his head off listening to me struggling to get them off!

He said they just mixed sand and cement, stuck a blob on the wall and dipped each tile into a bucket of water before sticking onto the blob and pushing level.

Maybe not the BS technique, but they weren't half stuck solid!

[grumpygrouter]

I just finished taking tiles off an old wetroom last week. They had been stuck onto the original 1953 tiles which were impossible to remove! approx 3/4" thick at 4" square - no grout lines and dot & dabbed onto the bricks.

The homeowner was talking with his neighbour, an old man in his late 80's who actually tiled the bathrooms in all three bungalows in 1953. Laughing his head off listening to me struggling to get them off!

He said they just mixed sand and cement, stuck a blob on the wall and dipped each tile into a bucket of water before sticking onto the blob and pushing level.

Maybe not the BS technique, but they weren't half stuck solid!

Fantastic. Couldn't be easier really. Does it work on plasterboard?

[Grace'sDad]

Bet it works great on brick - doubt it very much on plasterboard though

I watched Grand Designs abroad thi evening and the spanish tilers were doing exactly the same thing.

[faceman]

Could someone please tell what are the problems and pitfalls of spot fixing.

[grumpygrouter]

Could someone please tell what are the problems and pitfalls of spot fixing.

Besides not complying with british standards, if it was on a floor, you would be left with voids under the tile which gives you very weak areas of the floor. This gives rise to much greater prospect of tiles breaking if you drop something or someone walks on it in stillettos.

On a wall, if you are in a wet area you have much greater potential for failure of the installation as water can get behind the tiles much much easier and possibly damage the substrate.

In wet areas you really need 100% coverage. Normal dry areas BS states at least 50% coverage but I always strive for at least 90%.

[smurf21]

LOL .. all you young uns are great with all the tech stuff but us old uns are learning the tech stuff and we still know the old ways. unfortunatlly lost for you minnows. unfortunatly with the tub stuff today makes it impossible to dot and dab as the adhesives dont set above 3mm. but compo fixing ...OH THOSE WHERE THE DAYS...
Thank god there gone.

[whitebeam]

Had to repair a shower where the tiles had been dot and dabbed with tub stuff, About 12mm thick

[pjtiler]

some jobs you can spot and some jobs you cant
(and definitely not floors )
the trick is knowing when to spot and when not too
when the techy,s can look at jobs 25/30 years down the road and there still as good as the day they were fixed then i,ll change my ways
theory's great i,ll stick to experience

[faceman]

I'm trying to work out exactly what the technical negative is about dot and dabbing. Is it the coverage issue or something else. I'd like to hear away the positive and the negative.

[tiler burden]

spot fixing can still remain on the wall for 30 years!! my dad (rightly or wrongly) did our old kitchen that way for some reason in the early 70's but the tile world has moved on alot since then.

spot fixing is more prone to weak spots, water penetration and silver fish infestations!!

[murf]

the technique is still used today on floors by marble and stone fixers.I have seen many a good job done in this way and the results were perfectly fine. The trick is to use enough dots so that when the tile is tapped into place it is well enough bedded.

[faceman]

Thanks Murf. I was looking for somebody who had a positive reply. I understand you need to solid bad in wet areas, but when you're tiling with big tiles in other areas dot and dabbing gives you the ability to get perfect flat reults.

[Rab78]

I recently finished tiling a bathrrom, brick effect ceramic tiles, had to use dot n dab to get flat results. I used dunlop set fast plus dotting 4cubic cm 2 inch apart, this would ensure good adherence but skim the backs of the tile to help resist water penetration, you could also skim the walls all the same. I will grout with brilliant white fix-n-grout and pack in well to give support to the corners of each tile.

I rarely use dot n dab, its not good to use this technique with pre-mixed adhesives as its designed to stay wet and fresh at greater thicknesses. In fact avoid pre-mixed adhesive altogether I say, and keep that for kitchens as many ppl nowaday have showers on their baths. I know not to dot-n-dab floors.

Make up your own minds about what technique suits you as a tiler, albeit it depends on the job, but bring with that a better sense of professionalism when doing so.

[Branty]

I recently finished tiling a bathrrom, brick effect ceramic tiles, had to use dot n dab to get flat results. I used dunlop set fast plus dotting 4cubic cm 2 inch apart, this would ensure good adherence but skim the backs of the tile to help resist water penetration, you could also skim the walls all the same. I will grout with brilliant white fix-n-grout and pack in well to give support to the corners of each tile.

I rarely use dot n dab, its not good to use this technique with pre-mixed adhesives as its designed to stay wet and fresh at greater thicknesses. In fact avoid pre-mixed adhesive altogether I say, and keep that for kitchens as many ppl nowaday have showers on their baths. I know not to dot-n-dab floors.

Make up your own minds about what technique suits you as a tiler, albeit it depends on the job, but bring with that a better sense of professionalism when doing so.

Paisley, Dot and Dab, Dunlop. Could be one for you James.

[deanotile]

Could someone please tell what are the problems and pitfalls of spot fixing.

These tiles were spot fixed two years ago and look at the damage in that short time.
There seems to be some confusion on the dot and dab debate. The old method of fixing tiles in sand and cement is not dot and dab.
This is solid bed. Yes you put a dot of sand and cement on the wall but the tiles were taped back into the blob creating pretty much a solid bed. This was don on solid walls and the reason it is not don now is the backgrounds have changed.
The spot fix method (five spots on the back of the tile) was used in the sixties when the tub adhesives were first being developed although there may still be some jobs that are still on the wall from the sixties using this method for every one that is still up there are one hundred that have fallen off. The adhesive manufacturers do not approve this method and now one with any credibility approves it.
In my humble opinion the odd spot of extra adhesive to compensate for the incompetence of the plasterer is the maximum you should be doing.

[smurf21]

spot fixing baggsys not taking tiles of a wall that was spot fixed 30 years ago. compo fixed str8 onto brickwork...you cant use spot fixing method with todays addy cuz it wont set above 3mm thick but jesus the old spot fix method was one hell of a method..( THANK GOD ITS GONE) ITS EASIER TO CARRY 2 10LTR TUBS OF ADDY THAN 6 BAGS OF SAND CEMENT AND A BLOODY SHOVEL..LOL