where do you fish mate

River Mint, tributary of River Kent

wheres about is that, have you ever been to the nook in rye, the daily mail uses it as its comp lake, i had a 20lbers this year, biggest was 26, last year i had a 33lb, i went to the comp in august, and a 12 yr girl won it with a 22lb mirror

I think that when you go on these courses you have to be a bit realistic yourself. You aren't going to finish the course and then bang,your fully booked for the year. I did Darrens course 2 1/2 years ago,now before going i looked into it alot. Not just the course and tiling side of it but also the financial side of it for me. I based my earnings on making just £200 a week as a new business, i thought this could be achievable. So with my savings and earnings i could give my business a good go for about 1 1/2-2yrs to get established. Thankfully i got in with small tile shop and they sent alot of work my way and i'm still tiling now.

Aqua,you have just got to keep going back to the shops all the time and try and get to know them. Try taking some1 you know into the shop and pretend there a client looking for tiles,get them to get some quotes for tiles ect. This will get you talking with the sales person.Good luck for the future.

I think these training companies are only part of the problem u guys have in ur industry.
As far as i can tell most of ur construction is unregulated.
Pretty shocking is that these poor souls that do courses are let out into the general public contracting their trade.

This is why ur market during this economic downturn is so cut throat.
Everyman and his dog undercutting each other with no regard to the standard of their wormanship.


The training companies arnt to blame, they see it as a way to make a dollar , as well meaning as they are , there is no way in hell by doing the most comprehensive course could a trainee come even close to matching the standard of a trained experienced tradesman.


The changes need to made at the top.(government)

Trev

cant comment on INTENSIVE courses. Im doing a 2 yr (2 day a week) level 2 diploma at a goverment run college and they are encouraging us to have a few trades under our belts because of the current climate. Our tutor is an old fella of 65 and had his own construction company employing about 40 people at its peak so knows all about the good and bad times and also encourages 12 to 18 months working with a firm if possible. Never liked the word INTENSIVE. How can you learn all aspects of tiling in 4 weeks its like them dodgy driving courses IMO

at university, I was told by lecturers, tutors and careers advisors that I could easily walk out of uni, be immediately employable and be looking at 15-17k per annum and that was back in 2001.

I walked out of uni into 3 months of depressing unemployment because I didn't have any "work experience" and then eventually landed a permanent job 9 months later on 11k per annum.

I believed what the university told me because that is all I heard for 3 years and I didn't know any different.

Originally Posted by gooner59

about the present work situation?,do we need more tilers when we are all fighting over the scraps that are now left, due to the recc, i was thinking on these lines when the Hungarian lad was looking for work!! an points boys!!

Do you know of which training centre's are not being honest? And what are they saying?

well dan type in work for tilers,i just did it and there,impliying you can do the course and make between 17--40k a year for example is this fare, on a guy thats just been made redundant with a little bit of money, and staring into unemployment ,with the situation as it is,??

I know I have mentioned this before, but I really feel these coarses should not mislead people. They should stress, a 1 day,2 week, 4 week coarse is just a basic introduction to tiling, it's not fair to the student to lead them to believe they can tackle any job after such a short time. I'm sure the guys on here who have been pro fixers for donkeys years can still find certain jobs challenging.

Isn't this why we have the 'feedback' section for our members? There's worse sharks out there than tiling schools

I have been reading through this thread now for quiet a while and being the owner of a training centre i feel its time to jump in.

I really don't understand where all of this assumption comes from that because we are a training centre and students pay us to teach them new skills that we are somehow in the wrong because they don't all go out and instantly earn 40k per year!

There are people on here complaining that they have paid £2500 for their course and have no work, this is nothing to do with the training centre its to do with how the student has gone about advertising and attracting new customers, or seeking employment.

I am so fed up with people assuming that because they have paid for a course that they are going to earn loads of money! I see my company as no different to a college, people enroll on courses with us and we teach them new skills. Included in those skills are relevant business start up skills to enable them to start on the long road to building a successful company and achieving their end goal, which if implemented right at the start and the hard work and countless hours and sleepless nights are put in will result in a comfortable income and good lifestyle.

Now i know what argument is coming next, don't compare yourself to a college because a college course lasts a lot longer and you learn more. This is absolute rubbish, students completing 4 & 6 week programmes with us are more competent and confident than any college trained tiler i have come across so far. I have spoken with hundreds of trades people who have gone through the college route and the majority all say that attending 1 - 2 days a week is incredibly hard as by the time you get back the following week you have already started to forget exercises that you were shown the week before. \i can also compare the company to a college because we employ the same staff that a college would i.e qualified Tutors / Assessors and Internal Verifiers, not have a go ex trades people as lots of training centres do who assume that because they have worked in a trade that somehow qualifies them to teach others, for instance if i happened to be good at maths would that entitle me to go and work at a school and become a maths teacher ? The answer is NO because I would no be qualified to do so, so just because you can tile does not mean you could teach others !

Also all of these tilers that have no work, do they all phone the college back to complain that they have no work and no earnings after spending cash and time attending a 2 year course, I guarantee the answer is NO. So why is it an assumption that because someone has paid 2 - 2.5K on a course that this is some kind of guarantee of work.

What our students pay us for is tuition / advise / support and guidance, if they choose to ignore our advice and suggestions and this results in no work, whose fault is that.

What you are basically saying is that people should stop learning new skills, stop going to colleges / university's / further education / adult learning etc because there is no work apparently. It is not just the construction industry that has been affected by the economy, it is every industry so my question again, should the whole country just stop learning because there are no jobs ? Sounds a little ridiculous now doesn't it.

Fact is that this year a lot of training centres will simply go bust as people are slowly starting to realise that it is important to research what company they are planning on trusting with their future career, and what we will be left with are accredited training facilities that offer fully approved training and qualifications.

I think I have made my point and my advise to potential students would be, don't come to us expecting fortunes come expecting to learn new skills at one of the country's best equipped facilities and if these new skills are applied right you will start to build a successful career.

All the best

hi danny

you may have made a valid point is one aspect of your post!

maybe the tiling training centers should just keep their syllabus's of teaching tiling and leave the business start up out of the whole scenario, that way you eliminate yourself from the unfair critisism.

as you said, your teachers all have the relevant tiling training so your covered there but, just from a lamens points of view, 'what credentials to you/any tile training center have to teach business start up and income potential' i really think you are leaving yourselves open to unfair critisism which is a shame because NETT, yourselves and Chase all have good reputations on here.

people who want to learn to tile should do your courses if thats what they want but for business start up, then maybe they should go to their local business link, or bank or relevant accredited organisation.....business is a serious subject and i think it should be like finacial advisors, they have to be accredited..

we live in a world where blame and accountability is worse than ever, dont leave yourself open to this, just teach tiling an cover your own back, thats what i'd do

Originally Posted by AstonTiling

hi danny

people who want to learn to tile should do your courses if thats what they want but for business start up, then maybe they should go to their local business link, or bank or relevant accredited organisation.....business is a serious subject and i think it should be like finacial advisors, they have to be accredited..

I cant speak on behalf of the other training centres mentioned in your post, but Diamond have covered that point.

We have regular sessions with Barclays business start up advisers at the centre when delivering business start up training. The advisers that deliver this training have been with Barclays anywhere between 10 - 20 years and hold qualifications and relevant experience in business start up.

We are also in the process of arranging for our marketing company to attend sessions at the centre to deliver marketing advise to students, again this is done by qualified marketing consultants.

So again to clarify we have covered those points.

All the best

Hi Danny,

I'm not sure that any of this was directed at Diamond but more training centres in general, rightly or wrongly some people do have that view of them. I myself don't know enough of them to form a solid opinion but I have seen some wild figures by some.

I think it's the advertising that is sometimes employed by these people, can give unrealistic figures. I've not seen Diamonds advertising so not sure how you deal with this.

Do you have any figures available on what newly trained tilers go on to earn in years 1,2 and 3 on average? Is that figure readily available to training centres? If so do you give this information to potential students before they start on the course? It goes without saying some will be very successful early on and other won't make but there must be an average? In any walk of life you get out what you put in but I would have thought it's the minority not the majority that go on to achieve £40k+ in the first 3 or 4 years.

It's not just tiling it’s plumbing centres too have a reputation in the industry for showing inflated earnings.

Danny,
I think you have made a lot of valid points especially regarding accredited training companies. There are though other companies that do fill potential students ears with stories of the roads being paved with gold. I know two tilers that work in my area, both have been on a course at a company that virtually guaranteed them none stop work. They both paid out over £3000 and that included some basic tools.
One decided that he would undertake a wetroom installation, the end result of that was him getting into a complete mess and asking me to help him out.
When I questioned his ability to undertake such a big job his reply was that he had been shown how to tank and lay natural stone, clearly he needed more training in my view. The other installed a bathroom floor where the grout cracked in a lot of places and the shop had to rectify it for them.
They both have the name of the training school on their vans and time and time again I hear about simple mistakes that they make. Now these could be just two lads who are never going to get it right so maybe its time for them to go back to office work and running a pub.
I have looked at your website and read what some people have put regarding your course's, you clearly have the training at the front line and do your utmost to teach pupils and to follow up with any questions they may have. Training schools are not a particular worry to me, I think they have a meaningful and needed place for the construction industry. My gripe and its a small one is listening to the two I have had contact with insisting that they could tile the Taj Mahal if need be. (they are a bit late for that because Paul Riley claims that he did it).
Even when they finish the course if they apply themselves in a professional manner by advertising, pricing and generally being an all round good person the work is simply not there at the present moment in time, so some, not all, take on work at reduced rates to get themselves working in order to generate money that they need. I would never stop anyone from supporting their families, thats what we all do, but sometimes would it not be better for a newly trained tiler to work with a tiler with lots of experience?
I think that students might even pay a bit more to get their teeth into a real job where they will experience all the things that can and do go wrong. Is it not possible for training schools to link up with established companies/sole traders etc and to have them work together for say 2 weeks? I am sure that a lot of people would agree to take on someone for a short period of time that needed that little bit of real on the job experience.
Not all students or potential tilers are going to make it, that is a fact. Some training schools will still take their money instead of telling them the blunt truth and that has to be wrong.
As I made sure from the beginning of this post, you clearly run your establishment on the right tracks, there are other training schools that sponsor this site and I am positive that they are on the same lines as you, the feedback speaks for itself, its a shame that others do not.

to be fair, its also worth mentioning that its not just 'alleged tiling training center's'
that are guilty of exagerating....

the building game has been and always will be full of people who claim they are the d's b's

if were all honest, how many tradesman have we come across over the years who claim.....

they can lay 100 meters in a day
or they get £100 a meter for stone as opposed to you £95 lol
or they reckon they are the gordon ramsey of the tile world but there a rough as a bears ass even after 25 years in the job.

tiling is not for everyone
business is not for everyone
office work is not for everyone

you do the best with what you've got and you concentrate on what youre doing and leave everyone else to worry about you, not the other way around....as dom says danny, you and the other centers on here on the better ones so i wouldnt even blink at this thread but if your one of the bad ones, then you are responsible for bringing this area of training into disripute!!

ed

It's funny that I've done courses over a large number of years and it's only recently that there's the mention of how much you can earn.

You do a course, no matter what it is, then it's down to you because your've seen an opening in the market.

You pays yer money and takes yer choice, real life is not a training centre.

There is a certain irony to this thread. i.e. the minority giving the rest a bad name.

I've mentioned in another thread, I don't know if this site gives a general view of the industry? By that I mean just think how many bathrooms/kitchens are tiled everyday and I’m sure that a hell of a lot go without any hitch and leave some very happy customers but this site gets quite a few posts from customers who have had the tiling job from hell, but where else would you post your concerns and look for advice? It also attracts a lot of tilers straight out of training centres but again where else would you find such friendly members willing to give advice?

As for training centres turning out good or bad tilers if the industry has room for them or not. As I said in my very first post in this thread I think the government has a lot to answer for, it's them that set the figures for x amount of houses to be built each years and then in the same breath say 'we have a shortage of tradesmen to build them' even when the housing market was booming the number of houses being built was not meeting targets and I don't think there was any shortages in tradesmen. It had to be expected that some unscrupulous characters would set up training schools under the thin premise of it being government backed because of this so called shortage

I think all these training centres should only be allowed to train apprentices.
Even the most comprehensive course is a joke.
How about I post up the modules an apprentice in Aus has to complete?, what about the 4 years of on the job training earing a pittance .?
Where im from if you dont have a trade licence you are restricted to earning up to $1100 per job and you must advertise the fact. if not ur fined by our regulatory body ...simple.
Also you must be trade qualified to tank as well , no licence and you cant issue a waterproofing cert , which is required by the building inspector/council or insurance company.
In gaining a trade licence you must know all of the regulations that apply to ur trade and business managment on top of that.
Danny , can you post or link to the modules ur training centre covers?
Regards
Trev

We attend a lot of tile training centres mainly to do demos to students.

Have to say most seem to deliver a good basic skill set (bit like learning to drive a car) and then once out in the field its experience next which cant be taught.

Its getting tough out there which we have noticed that by way of late and delayed payments for stock. So we've had to drop the minimum orders of ten sets down to five sets at a time to help. Its almost a pay as you go type of arrangement with at least four of the eight centres we service. But I dont mind because if its tight for them then I want them to survive the recession and come out stronger. For us the goal is long term. And meeting new tilers at the start of their career is the best way.

As for ethics of trading I dont comment but I think there are centres that are better at some things. As for selling the tiling dream... Well we have a new sponsor onsite for Australia! Maybe I will up-sticks and set up in the sunshine