why do adhesive manufacturers produce so many different types of products for instance 4 types of rapid for floor tiles and 4 types of cement based wall adhesives , 4 types of acrylic wall adhesives ?

I don't use acrylic tubbed stuff gary...

neither do i , but the adhesive companies still produce rapid set under s1 classification and i dont understand why as most floor tiles these days are vitrified or semivitrified

1 - Novices
2 - DIY
3 - 3 week course
4 - Tiler

Originally Posted by garythetiler

neither do i , but the adhesive companies still produce rapid set under s1 classification and i dont understand why as most floor tiles these days are vitrified or semivitrified

I think if a rapidset is at least S1 ( c2t) grade, than isn't that a good thing...but it depends upon the amount of polymer in the adhesive as to what it is suitable for...S1 doesn't always mean suitable for timber...But i will say when mapei say it is S1(c2) , it is suitable for timber( usually ply overlay)..but always check the spec..

Originally Posted by Dave

I think if a rapidset is at least S1 ( c2t) grade, than isn't that a good thing...but it depends upon the amount of polymer in the adhesive as to what it is suitable for...S1 doesn't always mean suitable for timber...But i will say when mapei say it is S1(c2) , it is suitable for timber( usually ply overlay)..but always check the spec..

I have noticed Mapei seem to under classify there products. I.E Mapeker.

Originally Posted by matt257

I have noticed Mapei seem to under classify there products. I.E Mapeker.

Have they not now re-classified it?

Originally Posted by matt257

I have noticed Mapei seem to under classify there products. I.E Mapeker.

Mapeker will cope with timber overlay floors all day long....no probs...but lets not take trade away from keraquick , which is indeed a true S1 ( c2ft) adhesive..

why produce mapeker and kerra quick it doesnt make any sense

Originally Posted by garythetiler

more failures now than 20 years ago

thats not down to the products though gary...just more peeps having a go now than then..

Originally Posted by Fred

Have they not now re-classified it?

Yes, but they haven't re-formulated it.

Originally Posted by Dave

Mapeker will cope with timber overlay floors all day long....no probs...but lets not take trade away from keraquick , which is indeed a true S1 ( c2ft) adhesive..

Exactly my point, but Keraquick is still a far superior product and is still the addy of choice for many

Originally Posted by garythetiler

why produce mapeker and kerra quick it doesnt make any sense

Gary...mapeker is still faster setting than keraquick and i will say it is very flexible for a rapid set..but thats mapei being over productive in making sure their product will cope with UFH installations onto concrete... and thats a plus sign for me...

Keraquick is for timber ...or keraflex..

Originally Posted by Dave

Gary...mapeker is still faster setting than keraquick and i will say it is very flexible for a rapid set..but thats mapei being over productive in making sure their product will cope with UFH installations onto concrete... and thats a plus sign for me...

Keraquick is for timber ...or keraflex..

Try and get keraflex at tilegiant though - special order even had no latex pro here last week had to drive 30 miles for it

Originally Posted by mags

Try and get keraflex at tilegiant though - special order even had no latex pro here last week had to drive 30 miles for it

If.. it is a product you will use a lot then i 'm sure TG will order quite few bags i stock.

Originally Posted by Dave

If.. it is a product you will use a lot then i 'm sure TG will order quite few bags i stock.

Id like to try it

Originally Posted by mags

Id like to try it

you would only waste it

Originally Posted by Sir Ramic

you would only waste it
I stay with TilersForums.co.uk to be able to share and gain knowledge.

SO how do you back butter a tile then place it without touching the back and getting addy on your hands

Originally Posted by mags

SO how do you back butter a tile then place it without touching the back and getting addy on your hands

Carefully

Originally Posted by mags

SO how do you back butter a tile then place it without touching the back and getting addy on your hands

by using your feet.............lol

why do people always insist on back-buttering tiles,if you spead a bed properly on a floor there is no need to butter the tile

Originally Posted by david campbell

by using your feet.............lol

why do people always insist on back-buttering tiles,if you spead a bed properly on a floor there is no need to butter the tile

That depends upon the tile being used...?

The tile size and back profile of the biscuit...determines the technique used...

Variants.
I asked the Weber man a few weeks ago the same question ref variants and he insists its down to cost / price point. My specific question was challenging why not just make the super flex addy and drop the flex addy and go for economy of scale (more peeps buy the super flex therefore their cost and our price come down!). I can only assume that even the big boys don’t sell enough (even at combined rates) to lower their costs by sliming their ranges where technically possible.

Designations and Product Names.
I know we buy on spec designations rather than name, but I do find the BAL naming ‘system’ is more clear than Mapei, with Mapei I have to refer to their documentation, with BAL you can practically just memorise the range and ‘know’ what does what. That said Mapei and BAL are by far and away superior in their marketing and technical support. I had technical questions (to their phone hotline) with Mapei a few months back and they not only answered them on the phone, they emailed me helpful related info and they sent me a superb technical pack. Top class support!

Back Buttering
Spent time with the BAL man at a training session (I posted this elsewhere but relevant to this thread), he gave a superb demo using clear glass tiles to show the difference between a notched and a solid bed trowel. Back buttering is not required using the right solid bed trowel, but definitely is with notched as it only gives (from memory) 60~80% coverage which ref adhesion is probably ok for many applications but would be a visual failure with many translucent tiles. So I’m agreeing with David, I think he has a good question. I think the real reason people back butter (if not in a tricky small space) is because they are not using the right trowel! … but I also have to admit, a quick flat skim on the back of tile for the cost and time is a cheap belt and braces just to make sure isn’t it! Ooops.
From what I see, if you use a solid bed trowel correctly you know what amount of addy you put down at what depth for which tile, if you back butter you now add in a variation! So it would be good to really be confident that solid beds work and back buttering is not required, this would be really important when setting large format with very narrow or butt joints where there any excess addy cant escape wouldn’t it? (again – I’m seeking an expert response on this – for my own selfish education)
{had to mention tools as right product with wrong tool is half a discussion}.

Marketing
I think Gary’s question is very perceptive. I worked in a technical industry for many years and we created ‘products’ which were actually variants, sometimes variants by product part number only! To sell the same product into different markets without pulling down or having to raise the price of the other variants. I.e. you can make product A and sell it cheap to DIY market as product X and through distribution to professional market as product Y. I am not saying it’s a simple as this with addy OEM’s as per my previous comments I know there is a lot of technical effort to make subtly different performing and behaving products and I think they technically cant combine / lean-out their product portfolios. But marketing does have some effect. We also know that the sheds can sell their products as multiuse (to DIYers) by sacrificing quality at the customer end (something BAL and Mapei, Ardex, Weber etc wouldn’t do), i.e. wall and floor grout, which contains sand (as do many floor grouts) which you don’t want in a million years for nice smooth wall grouting!
We know we have at least one or two cement chemical gurus on here, Id love to hear their opinion ref if they could technically combine their products! (Ajax?)
Product – Position – Price … it’s a big game.

[ so how many of you hate it that I can speed type whilst eating Shredded Wheat?]

…. Stan

I can't speak for the addy boys but if you look at the concrete game it is just the same scenario.

If you look at concrete mix designs for example a Gen 3 concrete used to be a C20 with a minimum cement content of 220kg per m3 so why not just order C20 Mcc220. A Gen 3 concrete will normally be more expensive than a C20 Mcc220. Then you can complicate it by using ordinary portland cement or pfa or GGBS as a cement replacement, air entraining agents, water reducers and plasticisers which adjust performance for different applications. The issue I have with all of this is that the guys in general who sell these products do not often fully understand them and how to make sure the customer gets the best product at the best price by manipulating products and systems to fit the application. Many sales people sell based on a script which is often why technical problems are not addressed very well and as a result sales guys get a bad rep.

There is also cost and market demand. The DIY market wants easier to understand materials but because the general DIY'er is more likely to do the job in a less proffessional way the concrete producers have to tkae account of product abuse and make it more robust. This would usually have a cost implication.

Cost of production, robustness in use, market perception, and of course profitability, and what price the market will stand all play a part. I know the company I used to work for had 2 products for sale into different market sectors, one for floors and one for walls. They were in fact exactly the same product but were around £40 per m3 different in price because the market sector for one product could sustain higher prices than the other.

Combining products does not help add profitability to a range and reducing prices certainly does not. When you are running a business to please the share holders - and let's stay in the real world - the mapeis, bals, lafarges, webers, topps tiles, tescos etc etc are in business to make money and need to hold prices up in order to maintain profitability so dropping prices is always the last thing on the agenda. Price maintainence always starts with creativity and innovation. If we need to drop the price then we need to reduce the costs to maintain profitability. If we offer you something that "perfroms differently" then we can justify holding the price. you usually find that during an innovation cycle the new products just get added on to the old ones untill such a time as one or the other is no longer profitable, cost effective to make or is just not required by the market any more.

As you say stan - it is a big game and the stakes are seen as quite high in the world of the multi national companies especially at the moment. My own job depends on how well I play that game. Your lively hood will presumably rely on you doing the same.