Hi folks, great site. I've been doing my research on this site over the past few days but this is my first post.
i was hoping that some of you 'ceramic artists' could help put my nerves to rest before i start stone tiling the hallway, toilet and kitchen in my house. I've taken up the old marley vinyl tiles(1970's house) and of course i'm now faced with a bitumen adhesive. From reading previous threads, Professional tilers on here and admin have firmly stated that a good rub down with a degreaser and a neat coating of Bal SBR bond is fine over the bitumen before tiling commences.
One small problem is that i used some white spirit on the bitumen surface to remove some newer adhesive from temporary vinyl tiles i laid myself back in december. the white spirit has made the bitumen adhesive become sticky. Question, will this reset? or can i still SBR bond onto it whilst its tacky? the 'bitch' is only 1-2 mm thick, covering about 1 square metre.
Regards,
Andrew.

P.s, I have been given so much conflicting advice about tiling onto the bitumen it is now making my head spin!

The bitumen has to be removed before you can tile, I'm afraid.

The only way to do that is mechanically.
If you use chemicals, such as white spirit, you are intoducing new problems, and possible causes of failure, to the job.

Surley something like Bal flex would stick to it. Or is more of a case of : If there is a really hot day, the Bitumen could part company with the floor?

James, part of the floor to be tiled had prevously been tiled over the bitumen adhesive(in the kitchen). these tiles had been down for at least 5 years without a problem. I have searched this site for 'bitumen' based topics and the admin and other tilers have said they themselves have tiled over this surface without problem. In an ideal world i would consider removing it and have tried but the mess in a domestic setting is not good and some of the solvents i have heard mentioned that are needed to remove it would be really hazardous to use in a home, and i think that digging up the concrete substrate is really excessive. I've been around all the trade and high street tiling companys in my city and all have said different solutions ranging from...........
a concrete slurry screed,
a latex screed,
Bal SBR bond
my big regret has been taking up the marley vinyl tiles which were stuck firmly and could have been tiled over

David...... I can't posibly see there being any chance of the bitumen warming up. it that was the case then surely the original tiles would have come loose at points in the past.

I'll take my chance on the majority of the bitumen floor I'm more worried about the parts that are tacky from putting white spirit on them.

the bitumen must obviously be solvent basd to react to the white spirit, so would an SBR (water based) bond sit on top??...............It's a bl**dy mine field!

While in an ideal world i would always advise to remove any suspect coverngs such as bitumen, i do have to admit to have tiled countless floors in pubs, bars etc and homes without removing the bitumen 1st. I would use a primer firstly myself and a SPF adhesive.

Another alternative is to overlay the floor with 6mm tile backer.

Hi andrew......welcome to the forums.......

As long as the floor is clean and free from any loose particles then prime with SBR leave to dry and tile over .......use a flexible cement based adhesive.......and it will be fine...

Where the white spirit has caused it to become sticky .. use a scraper to remove this area as much as you can......

If you are in doubt of the bitumen adhesive then a wire brush is good to rough it up...

thanks mate, I know that professionals like yourself want to give the the most accurate and 'ideal' solution on the forum, but all i want to hear is what you've just written

As for adhesive i've already got a rapid setting flexy for stone tiles.. Could you please tell me what SPF is an acronym for.

Dave has told you right m8...................


Note !!!........the only way for your adhesive to dry will be outwards so all moisture will release through the stone. You must leave the stone long enough to dry after fixing before you grout then again dry before you seal


Tiler

..

In Reality, I have tiled over what must be over 900 Sq metres of bitumen over the years. Just SBR and standard rapid set. Once did a Skoda showroom (210 Sq M) which has cars on and off all the time. Still down after 12 years BTW

Never had a come back

Just 'offical world' verses 'real world' I guess. Looks like you will not be taking a big chance after all Andrew

Originally Posted by andrewc

thanks mate, I know that professionals like yourself want to give the the most accurate and 'ideal' solution on the forum, but all i want to hear is what you've just written

As for adhesive i've already got a rapid setting flexy for stone tiles.. Could you please tell me what SPF is an acronym for.

Single Part Flexible Adhesive

thanks Wetdecs that makes total sense, and believe me this aint a job i'm planning on rushing

just to check........the adhesive i have bought is a large format white dunlop rapid flexy, the floor to be laid is schist which could be up to 10mm difference in thickness.

Originally Posted by andrewc

just to check........the adhesive i have bought is a large format white dunlop rapid flexy, the floor to be laid is schist which could be up to 10mm difference in thickness.

As long as that adhesive can cope with a thickbed then it will be ok.....

It will say on the bag what the max bed thickness is....

Ive just tiled an over marley tiles and instead of taking them up I used a something called Bal Bond, I know its too late but maybe something to thing about next time Ive never seen such a great bonding agent sticks like s"$t to a blanket well recomended got me out of your problem

Originally Posted by garhum

Ive just tiled an over marley tiles and instead of taking them up I used a something called Bal Bond, I know its too late but maybe something to thing about next time Ive never seen such a great bonding agent sticks like s"$t to a blanket well recomended got me out of your problem

Sames stuff as SBR mate. Proper name BAL Bond SBR.

thanks Dave, yep it's thick bed, up to 25mm. and thanks to all the replies on here, i feel much more at ease now i've spoken to you's lot. I'm sure that there will be more posts to come from me as the project progresses

No probs andrew.( anytime ).......maybe you could take some pics for us please..?..

I'll see what i can do dave.

Good luck on the project Andrew..

All I am doing is giving BAL's policy on the matter. And as far as I have been made aware, the policy is to remove it mechanically.

I too, in the past, have tiled over it. And I have never had a call back saying it had failed.
But as I now work for BAL, it is not something i can recommend other tilers do.

Originally Posted by James@BAL

All I am doing is giving BAL's policy on the matter. And as far as I have been made aware, the policy is to remove it mechanically.

I too, in the past, have tiled over it. And I have never had a call back saying it had failed.
But as I now work for BAL, it is not something i can recommend other tilers do.

Just out of interest james...where does it say in BAL literature that there products will not adhere to adhesive residue please....

Originally Posted by Dave

Just out of interest james...where does it say in BAL literature that there products will not adhere to adhesive residue please....

This was something I was told at a Distributors Training Course a couple of weeks ago, Dave.
And there were a few guys from the distributors there, who said they had seen a few failures on jobs that had went straight on to bitumen.

To be honest, I'm too tired to look through the lit' to see if it's in there. I'm not long in after driving up from Stoke this afternoon, mate.

Maybe Gaz, if he is on, can help out on this one?
Or I'll have a look another night, myself.

Maybe onto bitumen substrate without the correct prep but this is just bitumen adhesive from vinyl tiles...


nice long drive from stoke then Eh!!!....

Originally Posted by Dave

Maybe onto bitumen substrate without the correct prep but this is just bitumen adhesive from vinyl tiles...

The bitumen adhesives residue from vinyl tiles was the subject in question, mate.

Originally Posted by James@BAL

The bitumen adhesives residue from vinyl tiles was the subject in question, mate.

Yes i know........and as long as it is sound and not loose etc it will be fine......but as a pst i understand your position.......

I was taught that it is not good practice to tile over bitumen adhesive. When I have encountered this, I have laid 6mm tile backer to overcome the problem. All of my customers have been happy to pay for this when I have explained it to them.

Originally Posted by Spirit

I was taught that it is not good practice to tile over bitumen adhesive. When I have encountered this, I have laid 6mm tile backer to overcome the problem. All of my customers have been happy to pay for this when I have explained it to them.

And how was the backerboard fixed?

Laid my own kitchen/dinning area with porcelain, small amount black jack on the floor after ripping up vinyls 7 years ago, Never had a problem

Originally Posted by Sir Ramic

And how was the backerboard fixed?

Rawl plugs, screws and washers