A second opinion request

[jay]

it does look bowed but not all shops con the public!

That is why i said normally

[widler]

it looks bowed,obviously because he did not SLC it,i know you can tile over UFH without the SLC but to me personally its a much better job all round.

as for the tiling,ive done a fair bit of slate the past 12 months,some of it rubbish some half decent,but none all one size or thickness. this slate doesn't look that riven to me,looks quite decent quality,looks like its lipped cos of the bow in the floor

[jay]

Thanks again for all your comments. They have been really helpful. Below is an update of our situation.

To recap the tiler came round and replaced some of the tiles with extreme lippage, at this time he said that with these tiles the finish we have would be as good as it can get, even if he started again therefore relaying the floor would not lead to a better finish. (And in response to Jay there was no self levelling compound laid.) Thus we went back to the shop, they said they are only responsible for supplying tiles and whilst they recommended the tiler they do not wish to get involved. However, they repeated these tiles would give us a floor which would be virtually flat (as it is a natural material it will never be totally flat due to the top layer), and they reiterated they were top quality calibrated tiles diamond cut on one side. This means there would be no trip hazards or protruding corners - which could be an issue as the bathroom will be used by young children with bare feet. As these opinions contradict (the fact that it would be virtually flat and we would always have a noticeable lippage) we insisted the shop and the tiler come round to our property to agree who is correct and the way forward. We have been promised they will be in touch on Monday and we will keep you posted.

(In response to NZ_Tiler he applied a sealant after the first visit. But when leaving after his second visit in which he did the repairs he felt necessary, said he would come again once the bath, sink etc had been plumbed in and reseal the whole floor again. I am assuming that the fact it hasn't been sealed explains the difference in grout colour between the two visits.)

As a final aside, we are attaching a picture of the original tile (the corner in question is the one immediately to the left of the triangular tile and by the corner with the arrows pointing to it) and that which replaced it. There seems to be a corner missing (the pen is to give an idea of scale) and we don't know whether or not to raise this as an issue, it doesn't look good to us, but we aren't tilers.

Attachment 38603Attachment 38604

The pics didn't work. Thanks for the update will wait your next update

[Discount Tile Supplies]

it looks bowed,obviously because he did not SLC it,i know you can tile over UFH without the SLC but to me personally its a much better job all round.

as for the tiling,ive done a fair bit of slate the past 12 months,some of it rubbish some half decent,but none all one size or thickness. this slate doesn't look that riven to me,looks quite decent quality,looks like its lipped cos of the bow in the floor

They had the floor screeded and over laid with dukka board, not sure why the floor should still be bowed? Looks like the tiles are "shaped/rivened". Thing is, we will never know!

[widler]

They had the floor screeded and over laid with dukka board, not sure why the floor should still be bowed? Looks like the tiles are "shaped/rivened". Thing is, we will never know!

they had electric UFH on top of the boards,just down the middle of the room,so there would be a lump in the middle,whereas when you SLC it,it makes the floor all one level

[Discount Tile Supplies]

were going to have to agree to disagree lol! CSI here we come! The pic above of the guys thumb is by the edge not the middle of the floor. Any way simple solution to sort out. RIP IT UP and start again!

[John & Mary]

Hi all thanks for all your comments and support. Just to provide an update. We wrote to the tiler following his last visit to remediate the poor workmanship and let him know that we were still not happy as whilst some of the worst lippage had been reduced, further problems are now present such as a 1/2 inch chip across the corner of one tile, the grout around the tiles he replaced being of a different colour to the original grout, and width variance between the grout lines following the latest visit. I then rang him. He offered me £100.00 for which I declined. He then shouted down the phone, told me I was being unreasonable and trying to personalise the issue and then he put the phone down on me.

The shop initially refused to get involved. However, we asked the shop for a refund on the basis that the tiler had implicated lippage could be due to the quality of the tiles, they contacted the tiler who agreed that the tiles are of top quality and not the cause of the problem. The tiler then volunteered to come a second time to do further remedial work. We asked for him to let us know in writing what this would be, however, he said that he would need to come and explain it to us in person.

I'm struggling to see how replacing a couple of tiles will resolve the poor workmanship. I’m really hoping there is an approach that does not involve ripping all out and staring again, but based on the postings on the forum it doesn't look likely. The bath and sink had to be significantly packed to stop them rocking. The picture shows how un-flat the tiled floor is, even though before the tiles were laid, we got the concrete floor relayed and it was absolutely spirit level flat and level across the entire floor.

Slope, spirit level on floor other end.jpgFull shot showing spirit level and slope.jpgChipped corner (replacement tile).jpg

[Mike]

is that level rocking on the tiles in pics 1 and 2 or have you raised it to get it level?

[Oli]

Looks like its raised to level as the floor is sloping.

Can you take a pic with the spirit level across the floor to show any lip page.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kilty55]

so you say the floor was spirit level flat and also level perfectly before any tiling took place and now its out by 25mm on the length of a standard level?

[Mike]

The tiler must have had a ready mix lorry full of adhesive for that floor.

tapatalk on my HTC

[andy allen]

i.mo. for the perfect floor your trying to achieve, you didnt pick the ideal tile, slate in its very nature will give a natural, rustic appearence, and trying to play the tile shop against the tiler dosn't sit very well with me.....

[Rich]

As Oli says, I would like to see a pic of the level laid across the floor if possible to see how flat the floor is.

[widler]

The tiler must have had a ready mix lorry full of adhesive for that floor.

tapatalk on my HTC

not a chance in hell that that floor was bob on level,no way can you get that floor that far out of level with tiling it,he would of used a ton of addy.
really can't see it myself,the more i look at it the more i think the thread starter has chosen the wrong tiles for a pure flat finish,should of gone for polished porca tiles or if they wanted it riven(ish) a slate looki likie

[John & Mary]

Andy

We are not tying for a perfect floor and have never said that, merely a reasonably laid one and judging by the response of many to this thread, then the standard is not what one would reasonably expect. The shop has told us several times that for this quality of tile there should be no lippage yet they were not willing to come around and offer any opinion or advice, despite the fact that they put the tilers name to us. The tiler on the other hand advised that based on the quality of the tiles, this is as good as it gets. So Andy, based on this how would you proceed? They can't both be correct......

[John & Mary]

Wilder, this is the point, it is out by this amount.


Hi Wilder

This is the point, it is out by this amount, along the line where underfloor heating covers part of the floor and not the other part. Just to clarify, we put the level on the floor and then put a weight on the far side, so this is how it is - If I had not put the weight on it then it would have been out but by the same amount but at the other end near the wall, but it is difficult to photo this way. - However, happy to take other photos and will do so shortly.

So again, is this an acceptable amount for a floor to be out?

John

[Rich]

No, if that is how far the floor is out then no that is not exportable IMO. The prep work should have been carried out before the tiles went down. It is just hard to work out what is what without actually looking at the job.

[widler]

ok,no worrys.
like i said in a earlier post,he should of SLC it before tiling,the floor is bowed because he aint done this,the lump in the middle is where the UFH wires are i suppose and it runs down either side.
his prep is not right if this is the case,i thought it ran down from one side to the other,not a big lump in the middle,this is why the tiles lip,if tiles are laid bonded then if the 1st row is not flat(some of the time,level is impossible)the next row will lip at the edges or middle.

[andy allen]

i dont think any one can tell for sure unless they had seen the job from start to finish and the quility of the tiles.

i take it your level in the photo isn't level, you've just placed it on the floor pushing down on the level at one end showing a bow in the floor?

[andy allen]

would still like to see some photos with the level flat on the floor...

[andy allen]

Andy

We are not tying for a perfect floor and have never said that, merely a reasonably laid one and judging by the response of many to this thread, then the standard is not what one would reasonably expect. The shop has told us several times that for this quality of tile there should be no lippage yet they were not willing to come around and offer any opinion or advice, despite the fact that they put the tilers name to us. The tiler on the other hand advised that based on the quality of the tiles, this is as good as it gets. So Andy, based on this how would you proceed? They can't both be correct......

i thought you said the tiler agreed the tiles were good quality?....this was after you told the shop, the tiler said the tiles were not good quility, the shop rings the tiler who they proberly pass alot of work to, so the tiler changes his mind and says there good quality, like i said your playing one against the other...

and to be fair your not going to get on honest answer to the quality of the tiles...

[kilty55]

hi ,i think a few more pictures may help everyone give you more advice....as already requested some shots of the spirit sitting on the tiles and also what the tiling is like at door thresholds and skirts........currenty you have a level starting at one end of the room sitting flat on tiles and your lifting it till its bubble flat making it over 20mm out and seems to be still rising?

just my opinion but are you sure you didnt have a FLAT floor to begin with but in reality it wasnt level

i cant see how the floor rises by that amount and then falls away by that amount

or the other option would be it rises by that amount and keeps rising giving you what a floor that 3 inches out on the other end?

the product you have bought imo is not going to be pan flat...if you care to google welsh slate floor tiles you will see many images where edges protrude etc...to me this is part of the beauty of slate it is not meant to look like a pre fabricated product it is meant to look natural and it will not be 100 percent flat on the finsihed surface there will be some twists and bows in it

unfortunately the tile shop will tell you that you had a top quality product etc etc they are not going to risk re funding you at this stage,

welsh slate....doesnt it just cry out to you rugged natural beauty? it certainly doesnt cry out to me pan flat mirror finish

[Swedish Mike]

John & Mary, in my opinion, the solution to this should be logical and simple.

What is the British Standard for Workmanship for Floor Tiling?
(What are the maximum permissible lips for tiles that size in that material?)

Does this installation meet the requirements of that British Standard, or not?

Yes = Live with it (or pay extra for remedial work until you are satisfied).

No = Did you and the tiler agree before work commenced that the installation would deviate from British Standards?

Yes = Live with it (or pay extra for remedial work).

No = Tiler's work is sub-standard.

I am not in the U.K. so don't know what groups or procedures you have for rectifying sub-standard building work, but find out your rights (from a lawyer, or consumer advice group) and decide what to do next.

What is interesting to me from reading all the numerous responses, is that there does not seem to be agreement or awareness from tilers or customers in the U.K. as to what the industry standard is, otherwise this would have been the very first response from someone, surely. And when I tried to find the British Standard for tiling on the web, I couldn't! I found a few links but they seem to require you to buy them just to read them, and they are £156 each???!!!!

So my question to all the professional tilers on this forum is:

WHAT IS THE BRITISH STANDARD FOR WORKMANSHIP FOR TILING? CAN YOU SHARE THAT WITH JOHN & MARY??

Best of luck.

[widler]

John & Mary, in my opinion, the solution to this should be logical and simple.

What is the British Standard for Workmanship for Floor Tiling?
(What are the maximum permissible lips for tiles that size in that material?)

Does this installation meet the requirements of that British Standard, or not?

Yes = Live with it (or pay extra for remedial work until you are satisfied).

No = Did you and the tiler agree before work commenced that the installation would deviate from British Standards?

Yes = Live with it (or pay extra for remedial work).

No = Tiler's work is sub-standard.

I am not in the U.K. so don't know what groups or procedures you have for rectifying sub-standard building work, but find out your rights (from a lawyer, or consumer advice group) and decide what to do next.

What is interesting to me from reading all the numerous responses, is that there does not seem to be agreement or awareness from tilers or customers in the U.K. as to what the industry standard is, otherwise this would have been the very first response from someone, surely. And when I tried to find the British Standard for tiling on the web, I couldn't! I found a few links but they seem to require you to buy them just to read them, and they are £156 each???!!!!

So my question to all the professional tilers on this forum is:

WHAT IS THE BRITISH STANDARD FOR WORKMANSHIP FOR TILING? CAN YOU SHARE THAT WITH JOHN & MARY??

Best of luck.

hopefully swedish the british standard should be the same as the swedish standard,ie good or better than good. i don't think you should have to work to any written down standard ,every job should be at the same standard as the last,ie good or better than good.

now i don't know if you are having a go at the 'british standard' of workmanship on here,but what has been said on this thread is right,the tiles are a riven tile ie not flat,so to gain a perfectly flat floor with a riven slate is nigh on impossible. i think nearly all the tilers on here would of made a better job than this fellow has,but,being british,we don't like to be to bitchy until we know the full story.

just out of curiosity, what is the swdish standard ?

[Swedish Mike]

Wilder, written standards exist, whether followed or not, and ultimately are used for dispute resolution, especially if disputes go to arbitration or court.

I am not "having a go at the British Standard of workmanship on here" at all, quite the opposite. I am trying to de-personalise this issue and take out all the emotion by simply asking did this job meet British Standards for Workmanship, or not? It is not my fault if nobody on this forum knows what those standards are... ;-)

Surely it is better that both parties understand the industry standards and agree on them in advance of projects commencing, that way disputes regarding the finished work can be easily and quickly resolved.

Not being funny, but saying tiling should be "good or better than good" is completely subjective i.e. the tiler who laid this bathroom believes it is "good, or better than good", whereas the customer believes it is "not good".

If the British Standard says the maximum lippage for this size of tile is 2mm and there are lips in this bathroom in excess of that, then the work is "not good", in those places.

However, if the lips are less than that, then the work is, by reference to the British Standard, "good" (or at least acceptable to standard).

The Swedish standard for lippage is:

Tiles up to 100mm in size = 0.7mm
Tiles up to 150mm in size = 1.0mm
Tiles over 150mm follow this formula: ((Length + width) divided by 1000) + 1mm.

In this instance, the tiles are 600 + 400 = 1000, divided by 1000 = 1 + 1 = 2mm maximum lippage. If that job was here in Sweden and the lips were over 2mm and the customer had not agreed to a deviation before work commenced, then the contractor would have to take the tiles up and do it again, at his expense...

All the best,

Swedish Mike

[Colour Republic]

It is not my fault if nobody on this forum knows what those standards are... ;-)

You'll find British standards refered to and detailed all over this forum!

[jay]

Just before this goes any further we are talking natural slate not tiles so the standards are different (or at least they are different here classed as stone)

[andy allen]

and know one can really tell the quality of the stone, unless someone has a look at it...

[Fliselege]

Mike, don't know if you've worked with us mountain monkies but in U.K there's no våtroms norm, no sentral godekjent and no taxtman to turn to, although i think Norway is a pathetic communist pain in the neck, at least it's difficult for the customers to be stitched up, unless they get papa polak to do the job on the black of course, which works out great for us as we get the job white to put it right, and the pennies come rolling in!!!

[widler]

Wilder, written standards exist, whether followed or not, and ultimately are used for dispute resolution, especially if disputes go to arbitration or court.

I am not "having a go at the British Standard of workmanship on here" at all, quite the opposite. I am trying to de-personalise this issue and take out all the emotion by simply asking did this job meet British Standards for Workmanship, or not? It is not my fault if nobody on this forum knows what those standards are... ;-)

Surely it is better that both parties understand the industry standards and agree on them in advance of projects commencing, that way disputes regarding the finished work can be easily and quickly resolved.

Not being funny, but saying tiling should be "good or better than good" is completely subjective i.e. the tiler who laid this bathroom believes it is "good, or better than good", whereas the customer believes it is "not good".

If the British Standard says the maximum lippage for this size of tile is 2mm and there are lips in this bathroom in excess of that, then the work is "not good", in those places.

However, if the lips are less than that, then the work is, by reference to the British Standard, "good" (or at least acceptable to standard).

The Swedish standard for lippage is:

Tiles up to 100mm in size = 0.7mm
Tiles up to 150mm in size = 1.0mm
Tiles over 150mm follow this formula: ((Length + width) divided by 1000) + 1mm.

In this instance, the tiles are 600 + 400 = 1000, divided by 1000 = 1 + 1 = 2mm maximum lippage. If that job was here in Sweden and the lips were over 2mm and the customer had not agreed to a deviation before work commenced, then the contractor would have to take the tiles up and do it again, at his expense...

All the best,

Swedish Mike

good comeback,i suppose all your natural riven slate floors are lippage free