Stone grades.

[Dave]

What would you expect to see/get when purchasing :

1 : commercial grade stone.

2 : premium grade stone.

There seems to be a lot of stone being sold as premium when it is far from it, so how would you distinguish a premium from a commercial grade..


Who actually knows what to look for.?

Just after a general feel for how many fixers actually know the difference between different grades..

[tileexperts]

well, i have not got a clue. but am all ears!

[timeless john]

DAVE - Whichever is purchased has to be an acceptable grade of stone to the customer. One sample tile will not be enough to inspire the vision of your client and the selling process cannot be delayed as the next batch cannot be the same. Decisions have to be made on the stock that is readily available.
If we are discussing Travertine and following your comment in JOTM no doubt tile suppliers will have their own grading system for this product.
IMO
Premium Grade - Uniform Quality -Square/Thichness/Weight/Colour/and No Faults.
Commercial Grade - Variation in qualities (as above) with extreme filling and in certain cases reinforcement.
There are of course grades in between with natural faults/voids and some limited filling.

The cost of the stone available to the mass market at present is such that most of it is of the lower grade classifications!
As most pallets contain approx 40sq mts of tiles you cannot be guaranteed that the stone is from the same pallet - let alone from the same part of the quarry - and so variation in the material is more than likely as the tile supplier sells any bit lying around that is not broken.
Your POLL asks How do you know!
Unless you are fortunate to pick you own, you are at the hands of the tile supplier.
So find a good supplier and stick with them.

Timeless John.

[dagger]

i personally am not familiar with the terms "premium" and "commercial".

however,

first quality stone is - flawless
second quality is - variations in shade
and third quality is - variations in shade, akimi filler, sizy, reinforced,
and any combination of the above!

so as a guess "premium" would be first and second quality (some people like variation)
and "commercial" would be third quality.

[hillhead]

There is thousands of marbles available alone,when you put the limestones,slate,granite etc in there it's a maze!I'v seen plenty of grade differences out there.As John says it the supplier who we have to trust unless we were above that(which i'm not) about the quality.I adore working with stone as its a timeless classic if done proper!! thats why i have a nice big sigma wet saw.
But i'm no expert at grades and types but i can fit em well and have left many's a customer delighted with their stones.

[chris.tiling]

Agree with Joe and John... Also stick 'em well, but don't know the background

[whitebeam]

Agree also with John and Joe.

[Matt]

I agree with Timeless John.

The customer has to be happy with what they are buying, but they can't pay commercial grade prices, for premium grade stone.

I have alot of customers that come into my store that want travertine. They want to pay £15 SQM for it. We can supply travertine at that price, but it will be commercial grade.

"Stone" covers a wide variety of natural products. But, I think Travertine is about the worst for grading. Some commercial grade travertine can be awful.

[Dave]

T/john....nothing to do with the jotm thread....it is whether a fixer knows the difference and not a customer..

A simple yes or no if a fixer can tell the difference and what qualities a premium grade stone should have and not just based on travertine....

Sizing/calibration also play a big part as well...

Look forward to more views on this...is the market flooded with cheap commercial stone.? and can a fixer tell the difference if a customer asks if they have good quality stone..?

[Matt]

T/john....nothing to do with the jotm thread....it is whether a fixer knows the difference and not a customer..

A simple yes or no if a fixer can tell the difference and what qualities a premium grade stone should have and not just based on travertine....

Sizing/calibration also play a big part as well...

Look forward to more views on this...is the market flooded with cheap commercial stone.? and can a fixer tell the difference if a customer asks if they have good quality stone..?

Sadly, I would say alot of it is. But I think that is due to the price people want to pay.

There are some fantastic premium grade stones out there, but unfortunately, the price reflects it

[tileexperts]

mmmm! interesting, now i have seen stone that has been filled and after a while the filling tends to come out or looks as if it will come out,
so thats basicly a crap stone??...
so what other things to look out for to tell if its a good stone or not???

[Matt]

mmmm! interesting, now i have seen stone that has been filled and after a while the filling tends to come out or looks as if it will come out,
so thats basicly a crap stone??...
so what other things to look out for to tell if its a good stone or not???

Filler is not a sign of crap travertine, but if it has alot of filler, then that tends to be a sign. 99% of travertine will have some amount of filler, it's just the nature of the beast.

[Big D]

Hi All

Travertine is a tiny proportion of all the stone available unfortunately the market place is flooded now and there is probably more commercial garde than premium grade in the market place as soon as the diy shops start to churn it out you know there is a problem for a real premium grade stone calibration ,shade and finish ie no polish or saw marks is key to any stone ,shade can still be an issue even when quarried out of the same bed hense paying premium rates for true clean limestonesetc.

[steveamare]

There are no real rules about what makes the difference between first grade and commercial grade stone. In our dealings with the quarries, we find that some consistently produce a high quality stone and others just don't have high quality raw material to work with. The stone that comes out of one quarry can be better than stone from a neighbouring quarry. Both quarries will tell you they produce first quality but there clearly is a difference.
A good importer/distributor will have visited the quarries and checked out their quality control procedures and visited the production factories to look at the state of their cutting and polishing equipment.
It's not just about the quality/density/colour of the stone but also about the processing - tiles that are not cut square or leave the factory with saw marks or scratches from the conveyor belts are pretty unsaleable. Those that are an uneven thickness will also cause problems to the tiler.
The size and number of holes in travertine is one measure of quality, the colour of the filler is another. Some travertines are more porous than others as well.
The quality of marble varies hugely. Generally more veining means more breakages when it's cut and fitted and hence it is recognised as being a lower quality. Look also at the colour variations within the batch. Difference in colour between batches can be acceptable as long as you buy all the tiles for the job from the same batch.
Limestones are usually judged on density and porosity. Some should be a consistent colour (e.g. the Portuguese limestones) and others look good with a degree of colour variation e.g some of the French limestones from the Burgundy region.
It's a minefield isn't it!
It does seem that the market is flooded with cheap stone with many of the sellers claiming it to be first grade. Even if it is their supplier quarry's best grade it may not be as good as another quarry's first grade.
You just can't buy a top quality stone for budget prices though.

I think Timeless John has a good approach. Find a good supplier - one that you can talk to and explain what you are after and one that will give advice on what stone will be suited to what you need it for.

[Richard Edwards]

I agree to most of the comments from John, Steveamare and Matt. Basically I would say its very unlikely you will get premium stone unless your paying a higher rate than the market average. - The old saying you only get what you pay for is more or less true. However I would say that as an installer, when I get a batch odf stone to lay, I go through 20 / 30 tiles and check it first, looking for eveness of colour, veining and checking for fissures that will cause cracks when laying or cutting. Check for saw marks on the face side and finally check for square and size variations. If Trav, I see how much filler and how flat it is in the tile and if it has been honed properly. If it is all ok - I proceed - If not happy I advise the client. - Assuming the client sourced the stone.

[diamondtiling]

I fixed a floor that was supplied by Artisans in Wiltshire, it was Jerusalem stone in various sizes from 400x400 up to 750x400, it was very heavy and probably the best grade I have ever seen. 6 months later I fixed another floor and again it was Jerusalem, it was awful stuff to cut, it broke a lot and even the pressure of levelling snapped a lot of pieces, it was full of filler and very light.
The difference in price was massive, £175 per mtr from Artisans, £40 per mtr from a high street shop, the overall finish was also vastly different so I guess you get what you pay for.

Going on Dave's original question I think you can see the quality immediately but what can you say when the customer has ordered it themselves?
The same question can be applied to porcelain, ceramic, adhesives and grout, only time and experience allows you to immediately spot an inferior piece of stone or other material.

I voted after I posted the above and i was surprised to see the voting results.

[Dave]

I voted after I posted the above and i was surprised to see the voting results.

Scary isn't it..

[diamondtiling]

Scary isn't it..

It sure is, I think I would like to see another poll on the same subject seeing as the forum has grown so much since the original question.
I would hope that the results would be massively different.


Actually I am sure they would.

[Scott]

I just cast my vote and actually felt a bit of an amateur clickng NO but was chifed to see the results of the poll!

[Richard Edwards]

I agree with Diamondtiling - Sorry I do not know your 'real' name. If we had another poll I would think the result would swing a long way toward the Yes camp.

Jerusalem Limestone does not all come from the middle east - Artisans have a super reputation and as said before at £175/m you will be getting top notch.

Interesting

[TF Ed]

i was in the old sandstone quarry in woolton village, liverpool in the early 80's and they were cutting blocks and putting the top layers to one side as inferior using the inner cuts as premium grade....that particular quarry was responsible for most of the sandstone used to build the liverpool anglican cathedral.

[ohhnoo]

I recently tiled my bathroom in classic travertine 610mm x 405mm and paid £17.50 (sale price)per sqm from Homes in stone for what was advertised as premium grade. The stone generally was ok but I thought was not premium and the price suggests it wasn't either, there was quite a lot of colour variation and a lot of chipped edges etc but the thing that got me was the amount of filler in some of the tiles. Some had hardly any but some had loads, I used all the filled and damaged tiles for cuts etc where possible and spent ages working out where these tiles could be used so I could cut out the damaged/filled areas. I can remember thinking at the time I should not have to do this but I'm glad I did because overall I'm happy with the job. As this was my first travertine job is it normal to go through all that hassle to achieve a good result. Now I know what I'm looking for next time I will inspect the stone more closely before I accept it.

[Dave]

I recently tiled my bathroom in classic travertine 610mm x 405mm and paid £17.50 (sale price)per sqm from Homes in stone for what was advertised as premium grade. The stone generally was ok but I thought was not premium and the price suggests it wasn't either, there was quite a lot of colour variation and a lot of chipped edges etc but the thing that got me was the amount of filler in some of the tiles. Some had hardly any but some had loads, I used all the filled and damaged tiles for cuts etc where possible and spent ages working out where these tiles could be used so I could cut out the damaged/filled areas. I can remember thinking at the time I should not have to do this but I'm glad I did because overall I'm happy with the job. As this was my first travertine job is it normal to go through all that hassle to achieve a good result. Now I know what I'm looking for next time I will inspect the stone more closely before I accept it.

Not when working with proper grades of stone..

By cheap and you get what you got.. but trying to tell customers this is stuff..LOL..

At least you got there but normally do check the grading before hand.. you cannot get premium grades that cheap..no matter what the stone seller tells you.

[ohhnoo]

Not when working with proper grades of stone..

By cheap and you get what you got.. but trying to tell customers this is stuff..LOL..

At least you got there but normally do check the grading before hand.. you cannot get premium grades that cheap..no matter what the stone seller tells you.

What would you expect to pay for travertine that is premium grade, the place from where I got mine Now sell what I got for £22 per sqm and still describe it as premium. Most of the websites seem to be around that price all describing as premium. Now I know what I'm looking for I feel like giving the place a call to let them know they should not be describing their travertine as premium.

[Dave]

It should be minimum amount of filler and nothing bigger than a small finger nail..

Calibration should be spot on and virtually no chipped edges( some do in carriage)..

Some cheaper grades have what looks like wood worm type holes and lots of them in various pieces.. not good..

Also tile surface should be smooth on honed and not filler residue left on them..

I would say for a premium grade then a cost indication will be over £30+ a mtr..don't be fooled by sales or bargain prices etc.. as it will be low grading..

[ohhnoo]

It should be minimum amount of filler and nothing bigger than a small finger nail..

Calibration should be spot on and virtually no chipped edges( some do in carriage)..

Some cheaper grades have what looks like wood worm type holes and lots of them in various pieces.. not good..

Also tile surface should be smooth on honed and not filler residue left on them..

I would say for a premium grade then a cost indication will be over £30+ a mtr..don't be fooled by sales or bargain prices etc.. as it will be low grading..

I bought 28sqm out of which 30% had either filler or chips, the size of the chips ranged from tiny less than 1mm to whole corners missing , I think most of the damage was done in transit. All the tiles apart from 2 were the same thickness/square and nice and smooth. The slightly damaged/filled ones I used for cuts etc or placed them behind cabinets/toilet sink etc where they wouldn't be seen. Some of the filled ones with good edges I had to use but put in less visable places. Some of the tiles that I think have been filled may not of been because there was no evidence on the reverse side but on the face although smooth looks like filler to me. I've even thought about using wood stain on the filled areas to make them blend in better, may experiment on some offcuts.

[tomar]

I market German Jura limestone in the UK. This is all sold as one quality. However the greater the colour variation that the customer will accept then the lower the price will be (within a quite small range). For large projects the quarry will ensure that all the material comes from the same part to minimise variation (not eliminate it). Filling of limestone is common and does not reflect it's quality.

[Colour Republic]

Oh my god yet another link to you site! I didn't expect that from you of all people. This must be a record, how about you add some value to the site mate and give some advice.. oh wait.. I get it it's all on your website...

[Richard Edwards]

Just a note to say that a trade client of mine asked me to install some Limestone in a kitchen for him / his client which I did last week. If ever there was a case for stating - you only get what you pay for, this was it !

The product came from Mandarin Stone and whilst I understand it was their basic Limestone (Modular) at the entry / lowest price. The cost was £26 /m2 and it was an absolute pig to install -
The thickness varied from 12mm to 8mm from piece to piece. The modular pattern uses 205 x 205 / 405 x 405 / 606 x 405 or thereabouts. Putting the 2 of the 205 x 205 squares together along the 405 edge should give you enough of a joint to make a consistant grout joint for the whole pattern - Did it hell - I had to lay the 205s with 2mm joints between them and put the bigger tiles alongside them with 8mm joints to make it fit !

Some tiles were so badly cut in the quarry that there were 8mm out of square - even along a 205mm length.

It was truely awful - That said I did my best to make it look really good and the client is pleased with the result. Thank goodness it was pillowed edge or was it tumbled - some of each probably -

At £26/m2 you don't get a lot for your money !

As we have all said time and time again - you only get what you pay for (mostly)