Looking for some advice, got my living room floor tiled with 600 x 600 porcelain tiles from b&q 18 months ago and everything has been great for 17 months, only 4 weeks ago couple of tiles have cracked and some tiles have went loose, Why could this have happened after 17 months of no hassle, please help, 12mm plywood was put down onto 22mm floorboards, and Bal Rapidset Flexible was used along with Bal Superflex grey grout, need help as only got 1 year guarantee from tiler.

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sounds as if they have de-bonded
there could be a few reasons,12mm ply is no where near stable enough it should have preferably been 15mm/18mm and primed on the reverse side.
it could also be that the tiles where dusty and have not bonded with the ply or they were not back-buttered which i feel is neccesary on large format tiles like these!

If you register on the forum you will get a better response, it's free too

Do you have any photos as that might help us?

There's a longer guarantee on the adhesives used, so give BAL a call. Though I bet you it's down to either deflection or not screwing down the ply enough. And to be honest, british standard stats minimum of 18mm ply and that's what rapid set flex is made for, I think. So if BAL wriggle out of it, that's the excuse they'll use 'fixer error using incorrect ply thickness'.

I'd also get the tiler around to at least have a look. Even though "he only gives 12months warranty" (which is fair, but he still should offer to come around, if it IS fixer error, warranty wouldn't even come into it, he's fitted it wrong and could be libel to stand re-fixing costs should it get to court if you took this further) he should want to come and see the job to tell you at least what's gone wrong. If you were happy with his work the first time round, and he thinks it's a product issue, surely he'd be hoping to get the job again?

I think your first port of call here is BAL. And if they claim it's fixer error (which it probably is) then your next port of call is an independent report on the job and failure which TTA can help with, or you can get one of the established professionals from here do a report. You'll need to pay for that, but it'll get the job done. Then show this the tiler, and if he doesn't want to budge, then perhaps it's small claims or something similar.

It's a shame, but it happens.

wrong thickness of ply im afraid

p.s. if you register for free on the forum, you'll get email alerts when there has been a replied added to your questions.

Hi !
Everytime i was tilling on plywood i layed first of all a special matting wich can be soundproof or waterproof or both.Last time i sticked this with karakol rapidfix mixed with a white latex base liquid. Then the proper tilling done with the same adhesive mixture.This matting thing offers extra strenght to the whole work and elasticity in the same time. What happend in your case is a no repair solving,everything has to come off and redone.Any atempt to replace and repair will add extra costs.Good luck! Marius

If the floor was properly prepped and the ply fitted correctly i reckon not enough adhesive was used to bed the tiles...

thanks for the replies, if my memory is right i remember the tiler being a bit of a stickler for the rules, he took nearly half a day screwing down and glueing floorboards and making existing floor sound as it was a bit of a mess he then opted for 12mm plywood as i thought 18mm plywood and thickness of tile and ply would have built the floor up too much ie 32mm, it was not only the living room floor but my hall floor as well, if the floor was built up this much i would have had problems with my front door ie it would not have opened.
The ply was screwed down at 6" Centres and bonded with Bal Bond. Why after all this time it has just failed after 17 months of no problems.
ive read alot on these sites and it as if the buck is always passed normally falling at the thickness of the plywood.
Thanks Again and i will give him a phone to see what he says.

what size trowel did you use?

Thanks for the replies, if my memory serves me correctly the tiler was a bit of a stickler to the rules, i not only got the living room floor done but got my hallway floor done as well, if 18mm ply had been put down i would not have been able to open my front door as this would have brought my existing floor up 35mm and too high for the door, i remember the tiler taking about a day to glue and screw down my floorboards as they were a bit of a mess and lay the plywood screwed at 6" Centres the top and sides were sealed with Bal Bond, he used a 10mm Serator when laying the floor, can someone tell me after 17 months of no problems whatsoever why is this happening now, it always seems an easy excuse saying ply to thin as this reason is sited on many sites from 6mm to 9mm but 12mm ply, i mean who can really buid there floor up by an additional 35mm

you dont have to build the floor up 35mm,you could have had the tiler remove the floorboards and add extra noggins and re-lay 25/28mm ply this would probably reduce the height of the floor,where you given that as an option?

35mm build up was 18mm ply then thickness of tile and adhesive but not given that option you mention there david

I know you probably dont want to hear it, but 18mm ply would have been better insurance against this happening. It is not an easy excuse to give the ply not being up to 'spec', and I take exception to that remark. I dont believe this can be put down to 'adhesive failure' the problem would have arose long before the 12 month warranty that your tiler so kindly gave you. Also your tiler had very little option here as you pointed out, if he had put 18mm down the finishing level would have been to high to accomodate the door. As a matter of interest what was the measurement from the floorboard to the finishing height to accomodate the door? I believe the substrate is moving, and probably in the area where the original floor boards were at their worst.

Pebbs

theres no buck passing going on Guest. you asked for the most likely cause for failure and we pinpointed insufficiant thickness of overboard, you state these sites so you have asked on other sites and got the same reply

reading your posts you say that you wouldnt let your tiler use 18mm ply as it would raise your floor level, so your tiler reccomended 18mm ply to you

many on here myself included would have walked away at the point as the job was likely to fail within a few years

im sorry to be so hard on you but your wasting your time looking for someone else to blame for this problem

this type of thing is the reason i try to avoid tiling on to ply at any thickness. you could have used a 12mm baker board and there would have been no issue with the height and would have been a more suitable sub-straight to tile on to.

Where is the debonding occuring? Is is along specific lines, like at the edges of the ply sheeets? Or at the boundary from one floor type to another, or into a new extension.

If so it could be settlement or movement of the building, inwhich case movement or expansion joints should/could have been fitted? What area of tiles is involved as there should be expansion joints regularly added.

I did a bathroom floor in an old house, plyed with 12mm exterior. 2 years on after a wet summer and no heat on in the house and then the heat on in the autumn the old beams moved and caused the whole floor to drop. Tiles cracked where two ply sheets met.
All fixed with Ardex addy. Took a day to cut out the grout, lift the tiles, remove the addy from the ply (that took the longest). Insert an expansion joint and retile and grout. It worked as no more problems but if id thought and inserted it in the first place i wouldnt have the slightly smaller cut tile against the expansion joint. I did the work for free, although the woman of the house was happy to pay if i wanted.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thanks for the replies, if my memory serves me correctly the tiler was a bit of a stickler to the rules, i not only got the living room floor done but got my hallway floor done as well, if 18mm ply had been put down i would not have been able to open my front door as this would have brought my existing floor up 35mm and too high for the door, i remember the tiler taking about a day to glue and screw down my floorboards as they were a bit of a mess and lay the plywood screwed at 6" Centres the top and sides were sealed with Bal Bond, he used a 10mm Serator when laying the floor, can someone tell me after 17 months of no problems whatsoever why is this happening now, it always seems an easy excuse saying ply to thin as this reason is sited on many sites from 6mm to 9mm but 12mm ply, i mean who can really buid there floor up by an additional 35mm

I would have used a 16 or 20mm trowel on tiles that size , though i dont know if this caused the problem..

something not right here

10mm serrator................how many clients know what size notch your using

Originally Posted by mikethetile

something not right here

10mm serrator................how many clients know what size notch your using

My thoughts exactly, even before the serrator question came up....Guest, I read through all the posts, what an astounding memory on what was used and how after how many months?.... ....sounds to me as if you had done this job yourself and are now wondering what went wrong?

This is better than watching a series of Poirot...come out with your hands up! and confess all!

Pebbs

I understand the value of having a forum where anyone can post a query about tiling, and get lots of informed advice, but...

- anyone can log on anonymously as a guest

- with such anonymity they can state, challenge, and argue without recourse

- and without pictures, we have to assume that the query written is accurate

Noble, maybe. But this post seems to be tying everyone up in knots, and I agree with the suspicions aired - could it be the poster tiled this themselves, and is distorting the information about how this was done "professionally" and should never have gone wrong?

Perhaps this "guest" posting status needs to be revisited?

Mike aka Poirot and Gisele aka Miss Marple, were soon on the case....theres no pulling the wool over the eyes of these two.

If I had to tile 12mm ply I would have used a 2-part.
But I wouldn't as I would use cement board.

Originally Posted by macten

If I had to tile 12mm ply I would have used a 2-part
But I wouldn't as I would use cement board.

Is 10mm cement board more rigid than 12mm ply ?? and well spotted Mike ...

Originally Posted by andy-p

Is 10mm cement board more rigid than 12mm ply ?? and well spotted Mike ...

No, but its better to tile onto but wont take out any deflection.

Originally Posted by Scottley

No, but its better to tile onto but wont take out any deflection.

spot on scott

Sounds like movement in the floor. Likely to be expansion in the hot summer months we've had drying out your timber substrate. Did he leave 5-6mm expansion gaps (filled using silicone NOT grout) around the perimeter of the floor and use an expansion strip over necessary lengths in the floor area? Very important to do this when using large format tiles on timber (I've seen it go wrong in one of my jobs, and I've learned from it).

The answer.....

A 2-Part flexible adhesives should be used when fixing 600x600mm Porcelain onto timber. The mass size and limited amount of porosity on a 600x600mm Porcelain means you need a chemical bond (single part adhesive) rather than a mecanical bond (where the adhesive soaks into the back of the tile).

Always remember -

Single Part is good enough for a single solution (either 600x600mm onto cement, or max 400x400mm onto timber)

Two Part is good enough for Two solutions (600x600mm onto timber)