Hi everyone,
I'm sure there are many many excellent tilers out there, but unfortunately there are a few who don't seem to fall into that category.
Recently, we had some tiling done in quite a large area, and we feel this hasn't been done with reasonable care/skill, or with materials fit for their purpose.
Our next step is to obtain an independent expert's report on the work carried out. Has anyone come across this situation before, or has anyone had the need to consult with an independent expert before? Where do I find such a person?
I'd really appreciate it if someone could help me out;we're really upset at the work that was done, never mind the money we have probably lost (porcelain tiles, underfloor heating...), but most importantly of all, the area in questions is our kitchen/dining area, as we just want to get the problem fixed, move on, and finally start enjoying our new house.
Kind regards,
Buzz

The first step would be to consult the tiler in question, have you told him / her your not happy with the work and asked them to correct it.

PS, please take the time to register, its free and you'll get access to the main forums where all the pros will be able to see your questions and advise you.

The TTA is the tiling industries professional body, but its not cheap to have a report done, around teh £800 mark was a figure banded about recently.

Ditto everything Oli says

The BRE are also a good source of independent test reporting etc. I use them when I need someone truly independent to do a report on substrates.

Hi,
Thanks for the replies so far - yes, the first thing we did was discuss the issues with our tiler, but he was not prepared to rectify the problems. So as a result we're at this impasse.

Any further input would be greatly welcome!

Regards,

Ainhoa

Oli is right get the tiler back and sort it out, will work out better in the long run

What did the tiler say when you confronted them?

I'm afraid these stories are becoming more common, do you want to go into more detail?

Do you have any pictures you could share with us

If you have already confronted the tiler and drawn a blank face to face and verbally the next thing you need to do is put your complaints in writing. Make sure though that the complaints are real and not just being overly picky (if you will excuse the term) because it did not meet up with your expectations. I know it is difficult but you must remove emotion from this and concentrate on facts. Has he done a reasonable job but it did not meet your exacting expectations or has he made a right pigs ear of it. Do you know any local professional tilers who would be willing to come and have a look to give an unbiased opinion. An expert report is only usefull if you intend to take legal action and it will be pricey. Fitness for purpose is a tricky one sometimes because you may not beleive something is right for a job but in reality it is technically perfectly suitable. I come across this a lot particularly in respect of drying times for floor screeds. Customers often mis interpret or even ignore what they are told and then fall back on the "it is not fit for purpose if it takes longer than 2 weeks to dry" sort of thing. Also it may be that "the purpose" was not clearly identified to the tiler and he has interpretted things one way whilst you have interpretted them another. I have been down this road with customers and their end clients so often that I would not want to count the times. It usually comes down to my customer installing a material well within the required minimum standards but these standards did not meet with what the clien thought he was getting even though it has been fully explained to him.

Keep copies of any letters you write to him as I suspect this will be the first of probably 2 or 3 that you have to end and don't waffle in the letter make it very simple and concise.

Once you have listed your complaints a phrase along the lines that you beleive that in light of the issues listed he has failed to to fulfill the terms of his contract with you and that you trust that he as a professional contractor will realise this and complete the work as agreed within a reasonable period ..... say 14days from the date of the letter.

Try to put it politely but simply and firmly at this stage. Don't flower it up with platitudes because these can innadvertantly cause you legal problems later on.

This is the first step and will hopefully nudge him in the rigth direction. If it does go to court or arbitration (and that is realistically the final solution) then you ned to demonstrate that you have tried every reasonable method available to you to sort it out without resorting to such measures.

I'll stop waffling now. Some pics might be useful and some ida of specifically what your complaint is so that the tiling pros on here can offer a more objective opinion.

Sound advice

I'm actually going through a situation like this myself at the moment, r.e my "schoolboy error/thermostat" thread, unfortunately the customer has been very rude to me and made it untenable for me to rectify my error. Altho' I do hope that you get your situation sorted Ainhoa, ( this is my first dissatisfied customer in 28 years, obviously I'm miffed)

Originally Posted by doug boardley

I'm actually going through a situation like this myself at the moment, r.e my "schoolboy error/thermostat" thread, unfortunately the customer has been very rude to me and made it untenable for me to rectify my error. Altho' I do hope that you get your situation sorted Ainhoa, ( this is my first dissatisfied customer in 28 years, obviously I'm miffed)

Have you written to him Doug to tell him whilst you are keen to ressolve the issue he has made it impossible for you to rectify the error and why? Might help you later on. Don't forget the old "without prejudice" clause though.

will pm you some correspondence xchange Ajax, including "treat with extreme caution" notes from both suppliers

Hi again, and thanks again for the input.
I will try to address comments en masse.

Is it true to say that the work done was not carried out as per our expectaions - abolsutely! but not in the way you think!

The 3 main tasks outlined in the contract were: level concrete floor (with screed); install electrical underfloor heating (including insulation mats); tile (large rectangular porcelain tiles, brickwork effect). We supplied all the materials except the grout and adhesive. The reason we wanted the floor tiled was that we were having a new kitchen installed; therefore we were expecting to have a nice, level, tiled floor in time for the kitchen installation.

We really think the fundamental issue is that the floor was never levelled properly (this is highlighted now that the tiles are on it). It really doesn't take an expert to see how uneven the floor really is.

So that's issue 1: issue 2 is the fact that an adhesive for ceramic tiles was used that we believe is not the correct one. I contacted the manufacturer, and they provided confirmation that this adhesive was a) not suitable for porcelain tiles, and b) not suitable for use with underfloor heating.

The third issue is just the general standard of the tiling: tiles are uneven - very difficult to explain in writing..not only is the floor not level, but the tiles are not level either (perhaps uneven amounts of adhesive were spread under the tiles or something..?); 3 tiles have already broken;and a few more are loose. The grout between the tiles is flaking away is lots of section of the floor, and the grout is as thin as a hairline in some places probably close to half a cm or more in others - extremely inconsistent.

For some reason or another essentially there is a issue with every tile on the floor (room is about 30m2). The tiler agreed to "lift and replace" whatever tiles we were unhappy with. Bearing in mind that the underfloor heating coils are encased in the adhesive, I'm not sure that would be even possible; but when we said that virtually every tile would need to be replaced, he said that he would not do that. We left it for a few days (during which time we found out that the adhesive does not appear to have been "fit for purpose") and we approached him again and asked if he had reconsidered and was a willing to start from scratch (bearing in mind that I still feel the fundamental problem is that the floor may not have been levelled properly). Again he said that he would not replace whichever tiles we said were not satisfactory, but he would not be willing to redo it all. Next, so we sent him a letter according to the Supply of goods and services act, 1982, outlining what is advised by trading standards; he did not acknowledge the letter.

It's very frustrating; not only had we paid this professional almost all of the money, but there's a chance that the underfloor heating. insulation mats, and tiles will all have to replaced.

When we take the matter further, I realize the imoprtance of having an independent expert report carried out, but have checked with the Tiling Association , and it would cost approx GBP 800...which is more money that we might be just flushing away. Do any you you have any experience with the tiling association, or ever heard of other ways to obtain an independent report?

At this point we're just deciding how we should proceed....it's a real pity as whatever remedial work we will have done now will have to be done around the kitchen units, which is very frustrating as we had timed all this so that the floor would be acceptable in time for the kitchen installation.

I don't want to post photos as I don't want to jeopardize anything that may happen down the line; but again, I would greatly value any further input you may have,

Ainhoa

if the man's worth his salt, he'll be more than keen to rectify the situation.
in a perfect world all jobs would be straightforward with no hitches..unfortunately that just isn't the case in the real world. Without knowing the specifics of your job it's hard to give any advice.
If he's a decent tradesman he'll know that 1 unhappy customer will have more influence on his workload than a 20 satisfied ones!
If you can go into more detail then I'm sure there's plenty of advice to be had here..
all the best
jay

hi recomend putting off kitchen fit if pos as new kitch might get damaged with removal of tiles your story doesnt read all that pleasant have tou turned on floor heat yet if so turn it on real slow and gradual check with supplier so you have no come backs good luck

Originally Posted by doug boardley

I'm actually going through a situation like this myself at the moment, r.e my "schoolboy error/thermostat" thread, unfortunately the customer has been very rude to me and made it untenable for me to rectify my error. Altho' I do hope that you get your situation sorted Ainhoa, ( this is my first dissatisfied customer in 28 years, obviously I'm miffed)

Doug, Chin up, dont let them drag you down. We are all human, you have help your hands up and prepared to rectify the problem. If 'sorry' sorting the problem doesnt cut it then there isnt much more you can do.
Remember all the happy customers you have left in your wake and dont let it drag you down!

well it pretty obivious this tiler dosent know what he's doing.
If i was to fix this I would leave existing tiles on floor , grind them with a big grinder /diamond cup to roughen up the surface , throw a couple of bags of leveler around and retile,

That to me seems the cheapest and easiest way to get ur desired finish with out buggering the in floor heating,

hope this helps

Regards
Trev

Originally Posted by heavytrevy

well it pretty obivious this tiler dosent know what he's doing.
If i was to fix this I would leave existing tiles on floor , grind them with a big grinder /diamond cup to roughen up the surface , throw a couple of bags of leveler around and retile,

That to me seems the cheapest and easiest way to get ur desired finish with out buggering the in floor heating,

hope this helps

Regards
Trev

that would be fine if the problem was just lippage,
but the installer has used the wrong adhesive to stick the tiles down, and they are already debonding from the surface, so if you go over the top you are sticking to a floating floor!

imo. all out and do it again!

With that much weight from all the tiles i wouldnt worry bout that

Trev

i would worry!

If this work is as bad as the guy is saying then in a nutshell it has to come up, you cant go over the top again with more tiles, how much height is that going to add? too much. An independent inspection does not have to be carried out by the TTA alone, any tiling company worth its salt can do that, its a third party evaluation of work below or up to standard. I have done plenty of them over the years on commercial work where Joe bloggs has decided he is a tiler and the incompetant site managers have let them on (pre cscs). You give them a choice to rectify or get off site, if they don't fix then they forfeit the retention money. This is a private case and if the tiler is not going to fix it then the small claims court is next, this sounds like £4000 plus, let a solicitor send a letter and then go to court, if you win send the bailiffs to collect your money. I have no time for these sort of "tradesman", the sooner all trades people are vetted or in a cscs system for private houses the better, all should have qualifications in their chosen trade, I am 43 and have been tiling for over 20 years but I know these regulations are going to come in so I went and trained to get my qualifications and I will keep training to get as many as I can, they generate work for me, no other tiler near me puts NVQ on their letterheads because they have not got the qualifications and dont see the need to train for the future, do you want to be tiling at 60? no thanks, I will be an assessor taking it a bit easier on my knees.

Rant over,............................................. Next!!

Originally Posted by heavytrevy

With that much weight from all the tiles i wouldnt worry bout that

Trev

Have I just read that correctly? where are my glasses?

Nothing wrong with floating floors?
I can assure u with that much weight nothing will move.
Maybee u should check out how the Egyptians tiled they all had floating floors with sand between the various substrates , thats the problem with tiling today everything is hard fixed with no room to move, even with expansion joints and such, i wont go on , its easy enough to research for urself.

I dont think the orig tiler will come to the party and getting anything from him will be like gettin blood from a stone , i offered a very good cost effective solution.
And yes im qualified and this is MY qualified opinion.

Regards
Trev

Originally Posted by heavytrevy

Nothing wrong with floating floors?
I can assure u with that much weight nothing will move.
Maybee u should check out how the Egyptians tiled they all had floating floors with sand between the various substrates , thats the problem with tiling today everything is hard fixed with no room to move, even with expansion joints and such, i wont go on , its easy enough to research for urself.

I dont think the orig tiler will come to the party and getting anything from him will be like gettin blood from a stone , i offered a very good cost effective solution.
And yes im qualified and this is MY qualified opinion.

Regards
Trev

i have seen that dietra advertisment about the sand and egyptians,
and i have just come back from sharm el sheik, and i went to cairo, it was very nice.

that aside your plan wont work.

the heat generated by the heatmat will turn the adhesive into dusty lumps, all the tiles will pop and rise, if you self level over the top you are just covering the faulty substraite, debonding will occur and failure again, incurring more cost.

imo.

Quick question?
Do qualified tilers in the UK carry insurance for this type of stuff?
Also how do you guys become qualified in this trade? is it the same in Aus?
appenticeships and stuff?

sorry for the off topic, trying to get a handle on all the cowboys uve got working over there, ive seen and heard of some shockers?

Regards
Trev

Heavy,
all Professional tilers carry public liability insurance, and are either appenticeship trained, or have passed a nvq in tiling, or both!

there is a cash in hand culture in the uk which means you can bypass the systems put in place and go and ruin someones home (paid in cash, no reciept).

but in 2010 we will all have to carry and show identity cards to clients to prove we are compitent in what our trade is.

roll on 2010.

Originally Posted by dagger

Heavy,
all Professional tilers carry public liability insurance, and are either appenticeship trained, or have passed a nvq in tiling, or both!

there is a cash in hand culture in the uk which means you can bypass the systems put in place and go and ruin someones home (paid in cash, no reciept).

but in 2010 we will all have to carry and show identity cards to clients to prove we are compitent in what our trade is.

roll on 2010.

That only applys to site work...no control over domestic market yet...

In my country and state we are required to have a BSA lic card (domestic and builder) updated each year , plus insurance if a job is over a certain dollar amount.(I also carry pub lib insurance aswell) need to if working for a builder.

Regards,
Trev

Originally Posted by Dave

That only applys to site work...no control over domestic market yet...

i read somewhere dave that alongside the roll out of the cards, they were going to advertise it on tv, so the general public will be aware of what the cards are and why a tradesman entering thier home should have one!

double edged sword kinda thing!